DIY G5 HSI installation

[Morm]

 Wry nice forum and info on G5

i bought one and hung it in old Collins ADF instrument hole on my M20K

works great. But I  

haven’t done any of the other plumbing.

Sounds like for two G5’s with century autopilot (I have the century41) you are talking 30-40 man hours with all plumbing .testing and 91.411 compliance.....is $10k of my kids inheritance a good figure?

Norm

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Norm!

Your kids will appreciate that you spent their inheritance on a forever plane...

After all, who is going to inherit the awesome forever-plane?
 

Best regards,

-a-

[bradp]

On 9/11/2020 at 10:52 PM, Steep68 said:

My Thanks to Andy95w and ArtVandelay for their input. I 'm trying to keep the CAN bus runs short as possible and wanted to know if Brad was able to stick his GMU-11 inboard of the Century IIB roll servo, which I believe is in the next bay over.

My Thanks also carusoam. I found some mooneyspace.com posts very useful e.g. rocker switch covers, the effort to replace the recognition light with an led, etc. Please keep them coming.

Hank

Hey Hank - I went with the right wing (opposite the location of the roll servo).  This is the start of the can bus.  This minimizes magnetic interference from the Servo motor. 
 

It’s a good location if you’re ever considering putting in a GFC, the servo will also go on the right wing. So the can bus stays short.  
 

But it will fit perfectly in the large square inspection panel just onboard of the aileron bell crank.  

[Steep68]

Bradp,

Thanks for getting back to me and clarifying your GMU-11 location.

Hank

[TCUDustoff]

Hoping you smart folks can help me out with this.  I am trying to do a dual G5 install to a Garmin 400W supervised by my A&P.  I bought a pre-made harness from an avionics shop in FL associated with Spruce.  It all seems to make sense when I reference the G5 and 400x install manuals EXCEPT the transponder tie in;  they left me what you see attached (ANNUNCIATE E, XPONDER RS-232, XPONDER ARINC).

So I understand that the 400W needs altitude info for VNAV approaches; that should be a signal wire into an RS-232 input.  The G5 manual says to use PIN 56 to output to the G5 so that means RS-232 "1" is going to be tied to the MAPMX (Or Aviation?) protocol if I read this. Altitude in needs to be Icarus-alt protocol, so that means I need to be in a different channel.  I checked the pre-made harness, and Channel 1 has an out only and Channel 2 has both in and out pins filled so I am guessing that PIN 59 is the Altitude input from the Transponder. 

What in the world are the ARINC and ANNUNCIATE E for?  Checking the 400W pinout, 46-51 are filled.  The G5 manual specs 46-49 for the G5 install so 50 and 51 must be what is labeled for the transponder but those are INs not OUTs.  I thought it was possibly to provide ADSB position info to a transponder but now im lost. 

Also, I work for NASA and do a lot of tinkering with micro-controllers and the such so I am not a stranger to wiring diagrams.  Need some help with these aviation wires however.  In the Garmin G5 manual, it tells you what wire is the orange, blue and white.  The transponder interconnect does not seem to be listed in the 400 series manual however -- How do I determine which wire set in the bundle is the signal for RS-232 and HI / LO for the AIRINC?  I am guessing the conductor that is joined between the RS-232 and ARINC and then comes out as a single wire is the ground for use in the External GPS Common Ground on the XPDR.  The ARINC cable is then left with two conductors (which makes sense) but why does the RS-232 bundle have 3? I could take the connector apart and check the color at the PINS, but I didn't know if there was a standard or something I could reference.  Thanks!

Edited January 17, 2021 by TCUDustoff

[jetdriven]

its not too hard to ring out the pins with a voltmeter that has a continuity beeper.  you place an alligator clip on the stripped end of the wire. then the other end of that goes to the test lead on the voltmeter. then find the pin with the other lead. note the pin number.. it helps greatly to write it down.

 

That daisy chained ground you are seeing gets a #8 ring terminal and grounded to the connector backshell

 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by jetdriven

[TCUDustoff]

*facepalm*  DUH.  I feel like an idiot on not thinking about the multi-meter!

So that answers the pin-out question and the shielded ground.  I think I need to buy the pin insertion and removal tool.  Since I can't find any reason to need the Annunciate E, I am thinking of moving it to Serial Channel 3 OUT so I can wire that into my JPI 700.  End result would be:

Channel 1 would be MapMX OUT for the G5s, Channel 2 would be Icarus-alt for the Altitude IN, and Channel 3 would be Aviation for the JPI.   

And out of idle curiosity, why is there an option to send Aviation data to the GTX 327 Transponder? The C172 I used to fly had a 327 and I can't see how any of that data would be useful for it? 

[Vance Harral]

3 hours ago, TCUDustoff said:

And out of idle curiosity, why is there an option to send Aviation data to the GTX 327 Transponder?

Because the GTX-327 can be configured to auto-switch between ALT and STANDBY based on GPS ground speed.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard TCU!

Got any easy questions?

-a-

[TCUDustoff]

Thanks Vance!  I see that now if I read the 327 install manual. 

I also checked every pin on this harness to better understand what is going on and it also appears as if they wired the G5s for a 430W and have the connector for VOR/ILS info wired up. *le sigh*  Now I am wondering I I should try and get rid of the 400W and pick up a 430W and replace my old Terra 760Ds at the same time...*double sigh*  It appears as if I would only need to add 7 wires to the harness to go to a GMA 340. (which also means replacing my com panel and intercom...should have known this would not be this easy!)

And carusoam, thanks! (but also no!) All the easy questions I figured out just be reading the forums

Edited January 18, 2021 by TCUDustoff

[Cruiser]

23 hours ago, TCUDustoff said:

Hoping you smart folks can help me out with this.  I am trying to do a dual G5 install to a Garmin 400W supervised by my A&P.  I bought a pre-made harness from an avionics shop in FL associated with Spruce.  It all seems to make sense when I reference the G5 and 400x install manuals EXCEPT the transponder tie in;  they left me what you see attached (ANNUNCIATE E, XPONDER RS-232, XPONDER ARINC).

So I understand that the 400W needs altitude info for VNAV approaches; that should be a signal wire into an RS-232 input.  The G5 manual says to use PIN 56 to output to the G5 so that means RS-232 "1" is going to be tied to the MAPMX (Or Aviation?) protocol if I read this. Altitude in needs to be Icarus-alt protocol, so that means I need to be in a different channel.  I checked the pre-made harness, and Channel 1 has an out only and Channel 2 has both in and out pins filled so I am guessing that PIN 59 is the Altitude input from the Transponder. 

What in the world are the ARINC and ANNUNCIATE E for?  Checking the 400W pinout, 46-51 are filled.  The G5 manual specs 46-49 for the G5 install so 50 and 51 must be what is labeled for the transponder but those are INs not OUTs.  I thought it was possibly to provide ADSB position info to a transponder but now im lost. 

Also, I work for NASA and do a lot of tinkering with micro-controllers and the such so I am not a stranger to wiring diagrams.  Need some help with these aviation wires however.  In the Garmin G5 manual, it tells you what wire is the orange, blue and white.  The transponder interconnect does not seem to be listed in the 400 series manual however -- How do I determine which wire set in the bundle is the signal for RS-232 and HI / LO for the AIRINC?  I am guessing the conductor that is joined between the RS-232 and ARINC and then comes out as a single wire is the ground for use in the External GPS Common Ground on the XPDR.  The ARINC cable is then left with two conductors (which makes sense) but why does the RS-232 bundle have 3? I could take the connector apart and check the color at the PINS, but I didn't know if there was a standard or something I could reference.  Thanks!

the three wires in the middle plus the two on the right of them need Garmin pins crimped on the ends. The wire on the left needs a blue ring terminal connector and connects to ground. . 

[TCUDustoff]

Cruiser,

Jet driven got me straight on the ground to the connector and yeah, I get that it needs the Garmin pin and then insertion into the transponder connector   I don't get why its three wires, however, when RS-232 would only be one or two wires depending if its on-way or bi-directional; the ARINC makes sense because it needs two wires and two are in the bundle.  Also, the 1 wire / 2 wire also matches the figures in the 430 Install Figures.  Not sure what they were trying to wire for on my harness.  I guess I am going to have to call them tomorrow.... Speaking of those figures... 

 

 

*Screwed up my snip.  Edited...should make sense now* 

For my education, in this diagram pins 21 and 22 are just wires without any external shielding taken to ground.  I am guessing the audio on pins 6,4 and 18 would be in three-conductor shielded wire and the outer shield would be grounded to the connector on only the GMA 340 end? Do you leave the other end on the 430W floating? Trying to make sure I understand the diagram nomenclature correctly, because if you look at the below figure I think it is trying to tell me that the wires need to be grounded on BOTH connectors.  Am I getting this correct?  

 

Also...I hope I am not "hijacking" the thread since my goal is to do a self-install of the G5s! Hoping my questions will help somebody else wanting to do the same thing. 

Edited January 18, 2021 by TCUDustoff

[EricJ]

15 minutes ago, TCUDustoff said:

For my education, in this diagram pins 21 and 22 are just wires without any external shielding taken to ground.  I am guessing the audio on pins 6,4 and 18 would be in three-conductor shielded wire and the outer shield would be grounded to the connector on only the GMA 340 end? Do you leave the other end on the 430W floating? Trying to make sure I understand the diagram nomenclature correctly, because if you look at the below figure I think it is trying to tell me that the wires need to be grounded on BOTH connectors.  Am I getting this correct?  

 

Also...I hope I am not "hijacking" the thread since my goal is to do a self-install of the G5s! Hoping my questions will help somebody else wanting to do the same thing. 

Yes, that means that the shields for those pairs get grounded on both ends.   That's not normal practice in electronic communications because it encourages ground loops, but I see it specified in avionics fairly frequently.

 

[Cruiser]

On 1/17/2021 at 4:46 PM, TCUDustoff said:

What in the world are the ARINC and ANNUNCIATE E for?  Checking the 400W pinout, 46-51 are filled.  The G5 manual specs 46-49 for the G5 install so 50 and 51 must be what is labeled for the transponder but those are INs not OUTs.  I thought it was possibly to provide ADSB position info to a transponder but now im lost. 

IF these wires are connected from the G5 ------> the transponder I would guess they wired it so you can get the Altitude data on either the RS232 OR the ARINC429 lines. 

The ONLY connection needed from the transponder would be a GPS source if it is not provided from some other (GNS400W) source. IF you used the RS232 lines for that, you would need the ARINC lines for something else.

If you have the G5 connected to the GNS400W, you will not need any connection to the transponder as far as I can see. 

 

[TCUDustoff]

Cruiser,

From what I can tell the harness has ARINC IN 2 going to the transponder...makes ZERO sense to me.  The G5 only has serial direct from the 400W; the rest of the inputs come from the GAD and ARINC per G5 Install Manual Figure 5-12 Dual G5 with GPS/VHF Navigator.  Its evident they built the harness to that figure (per the included paperwork) and then had the weird transponder crap.

I have a line on a used Garmin 330 and a 430W.  Thinking of swapping my AT-150 for that and then configuring it for serial output into the 430W and then at some point when funds recover, send the 330 out for an ES upgrade.  Then at least I get audible traffic alerts....

Should be simple with supervision from the avionics guru on the field to add the pins to configure for a 430 and a real com panel.  Always good to exercise my soldering skills

Edited January 19, 2021 by TCUDustoff

[carusoam]

No serious hijack issue here...

As the OP did a great job with the discussion two years ago...

Consider, if you want to start a new topic...

Or just keep going...

Still hoping for a high arc softball question I can take a swing at...   

Best regards,

-a-

[TCUDustoff]

I'm going to ask this question here, sorry for the thread bump, because if somebody ELSE is doing this and does a search this is the FIRST thread that will pop up!  And I am sure SOMEBODY will have the same question!

Since I ordered a *mostly* pre-made harness, I have extra connectors.  Can I wire in a connector for a future GAD-13 install and just secure the connector and not screw up the can-bus? 

The way the can-bus is wired, my mechanical engineer brain seems to think that it won't care.... but then again I barely got a B in all my EE classes hence my question 

Y'all are probably saying "just spend the $450 and install it" but my insurance is up for renewal and I REALLY need to replace the donuts on the mains so.... I really need to spend it elsewhere.  And I'd rather add it now, before I put the harness in the plane this weekend, then try to do it after the fact....

[EricJ]

4 minutes ago, TCUDustoff said:

I'm going to ask this question here, sorry for the thread bump, because if somebody ELSE is doing this and does a search this is the FIRST thread that will pop up!  And I am sure SOMEBODY will have the same question!

Since I ordered a *mostly* pre-made harness, I have extra connectors.  Can I wire in a connector for a future GAD-13 install and just secure the connector and not screw up the can-bus? 

The way the can-bus is wired, my mechanical engineer brain seems to think that it won't care.... but then again I barely got a B in all my EE classes hence my question 

Y'all are probably saying "just spend the $450 and install it" but my insurance is up for renewal and I REALLY need to replace the donuts on the mains so.... I really need to spend it elsewhere.  And I'd rather add it now, before I put the harness in the plane this weekend, then try to do it after the fact....

There needs to be a terminator at the end of the bus, no matter where it is.   If I understand what you're asking correctly, a potential way to do this is to wire in the extra connector, but plug the last connector in the harness into the device with the terminator.   An alternative method that may work is to plug just a terminator into the last connector and then make sure the previous device on the harness does not have a terminator.

I hope that makes sense.   Basically, the bus has to have a terminator on each end, and nowhere else.

 

[PT20J]

Some of the Garmin gear has CAN bus termination resistors that can be used by connecting the appropriate pins at the CAN bus connector. Garmin also makes a CAN bus terminator pass through connector. This is useful if you need to terminate the bus at a device which does not have termination resistors or if you need to extend the bus and move the termination point. As long as the bus is properly terminated at the ends, you can add devices anywhere along the bus.

All devices listen to the bus passively and transmit using open collector drivers so as not to load the bus when not transmitting. The termination resistors at each end terminate the bus cable in its characteristic impedance to prevent reflections that would cause data errors due to intersymbol interference. In essence they make the bus electrically appear infinitely long. Think of the bus as a wing with the resistors at the wingtips. 

Skip
 

[TCUDustoff]

So my G5s came with the CAN bus terminating adapters and the plan was to put this on the GMU 11 since its at the "end" of the BUS per the Garmin wiring diagram.   My plan, if it would work, would be to add another connector between the GAD29B and the GMU-11 and leave it "open" and not plugged into anything but wired for the GAD-13 and situated where I would install it later.  

If I understand @EricJ and @PT20J correctly, this should work as long as the bus is terminated with the provided adapter at the GMU-11.  In essence, the plug is "invisible" to the rest of the network and I would just need to ensure its capped and secure.  Sound about right? 

Thanks! 

[PT20J]

4 hours ago, TCUDustoff said:

So my G5s came with the CAN bus terminating adapters and the plan was to put this on the GMU 11 since its at the "end" of the BUS per the Garmin wiring diagram.   My plan, if it would work, would be to add another connector between the GAD29B and the GMU-11 and leave it "open" and not plugged into anything but wired for the GAD-13 and situated where I would install it later.  

If I understand @EricJ and @PT20J correctly, this should work as long as the bus is terminated with the provided adapter at the GMU-11.  In essence, the plug is "invisible" to the rest of the network and I would just need to ensure its capped and secure.  Sound about right? 

Thanks! 

That sounds OK to me. But make sure to label everything and keep wiring diagrams for later reference and in case you sell the airplane. My avionics installer complains about the difficulty in dealing with installations where someone ordered a generic harness with a bunch of unlabeled unused connectors and no documentation. Takes extra time to add something because he has to figure out what’s what.

Skip

[OR75]

@TCUDustoff I don’t think the W version of the GNS requires the altitude information.

[Warren]

In the wiring from the GMU11 to the GAD 29, leave an extra length/loop in the CAN wiring that can easily be cut and spliced into the GAD 13.  You can probably mount the GAD 13 right beside the GAD 26 so this will not need to be a long loop (may be 2').

[TCUDustoff]

@PT20J  Thanks and don't worry; the only way my A&P is okay with me doing most of the work here is because of my documentation.  I have print outs of every wiring diagram, with notes on how I am configuring it and what colors I am using for any shielded wiring that isnt in the manual (like non Garmin com panel), in a big binder and I've gone 16 year old school-girl with the label maker!  

I've also been bench checking everything with an old lab power supply I purchased surplus from my job at NASA, and I am going to done one final integrated bench test with everything before we put it all in the plane next week.  

 

@OR75  That's an interesting comment;  It may not be required, but I am hooking it up anyways because I am already in there and...