2005 Ovation 2 - Oil leak

[MooneyDK]

Hi Mooniacs,

We are two Danes that own and fly our beloved 2005 Ovation 2 with G1000, FIKI etc. Everything works fine - except we experience significant oil leaks!

It comes from oil seperator, and it doesn't matter if we fly with 6 or 7 quarts, we had even tried to let oil go down a little bellow 6 quarts, same issue!

All good idea's are welcome!

Happy flying from Denmark!

Jacob & Lars

 

[StevenL757]

This happened to my factory reman initially - albeit, without anywhere near that much oil loss.  Fortunately, we caught it in less than 2 hours' operation on the engine and before excess crankcase pressures could do any damage.

Disconnect the air/oil separator and route the crankcase vent to the original airframe configuration (not connected to the oil separator).  Crankcase pressure will then show 0-inches of water when tested.  Plan on cleaning your belly regularly.  I realize air/oil seps can work well for some folks, but on the IO550 platform, you're better off without one.

Steve

[Wildenschild]

The "leak" is for sure comming from the separator. I spend an hour yesterday examining the engine with a flashlight, everything is totally clean and free from oil. After a 30 min flight this much (see pic.) came out from the separator drain. It's a mess!   

We have quite some "mayonnaise" (that's what we call oil whipped with water / moisture in DK) / in the oil filler pipe (see the secound pic.). Is that something your Guys see on your engines (IO-550) as well?

The plane is keept in a heated hangar and flown at least one hour every secound week.

Lars

Edited February 15, 2018 by Wildenschild

[Guest]

We are working on the same problem on a 2005 Ovation as well.  It started venting oil since we did the 310 HP upgrade to the engine.

Have you cleaned the rubber line from the oil filler tube to the Airwolf separator?  Cleaned the inside of the separator?  Make sure the drain line from the separator to the push rod tube on cylinder #2 is clear and does not have a low spot in it?

Clarence

[Wildenschild]

Thanks Clarence. We will make sure that will be done!

By the way this engine has been downgraded to 280 HP as the 310 HP conversion is not allowed in EASA reg.

Lars

Edited February 15, 2018 by Wildenschild

[buddy]

To get rid of the condensation in your fill tube you should loosen up your dipstick and pull out a couple of inches after each flight. Tighten the dipstick down once the engine cools off and this will get rid of your condensation. This may  be causing a problem with condensation in the hose leading to your oil separator  and clogging it up. 

[carusoam]

J & L,

One thing To update when you can...

Your avatar data indicates you are flying a Bravo (M20M). Yet you are discussing an IO550 for your O...

I have an O1 it has had two IO550s, 280 and 310hp versions... No air/oil separator used on either. Very little oil pushed overboard or burnt...

There is a thread around here somewhere related to the topic of air/oil separators.  It outlines some of the challenges people have had with the installations...

Who/What shop did the installation?

Hope that is helpful to determining your next steps...

Best regards,

-a-

[MooneyDK]

Profile updated...

Thanks for replies - we will give it a try to clean hoses, open dipstick after flight etc. If no success, we try remove the separator as I understand many does.

Best Regards 

Jacob

[triple8s]

My O has no separater and something i have noticed,  not sure if the separator makes a difference but if i fill my oil up to 8 qts it blows it out in a few hours if my flying is short trips with multiple TO & LNDGS. If i fill to 8qts and make several long flights it pretty much stays at 7.5 - 8 qts. Seems like T.O. & LNGDS or doing manuvers like lazy 8s or chandells cause oil to blow out the CC vent tube more so than climbing to cruise and level flight. If i let the oil level stabilize on its own it stays right at 6.5 qts. Compressions were all in the 70's at annual except one cyl which was 68 so i doubt thats a problem. The engine is a 575 hr SFNEW so it is low time. 

After every flight unless i park on the ramp away from the home base i always open my oil filler/dipstick and leave it up a couple inches and the moisture can escape while the engine is warm this greatly reduces condesate in the CC and oil. I also change my oil every 25 hrs which may be over zealous on my part but oil is cheap compared to other things, doing so gives me a chance to look at everything while the cowling is off and when the oil is drained any moisture or contaminants go bye bye with the old oil. Atleast thats my opinion.

[Little Dipper]

On 2/16/2018 at 10:25 AM, triple8s said:

My O has no separater and something i have noticed,  not sure if the separator makes a difference but if i fill my oil up to 8 qts it blows it out in a few hours if my flying is short trips with multiple TO & LNDGS. If i fill to 8qts and make several long flights it pretty much stays at 7.5 - 8 qts. Seems like T.O. & LNGDS or doing manuvers like lazy 8s or chandells cause oil to blow out the CC vent tube more so than climbing to cruise and level flight. If i let the oil level stabilize on its own it stays right at 6.5 qts. Compressions were all in the 70's at annual except one cyl which was 68 so i doubt thats a problem. The engine is a 575 hr SFNEW so it is low time. 

After every flight unless i park on the ramp away from the home base i always open my oil filler/dipstick and leave it up a couple inches and the moisture can escape while the engine is warm this greatly reduces condesate in the CC and oil. I also change my oil every 25 hrs which may be over zealous on my part but oil is cheap compared to other things, doing so gives me a chance to look at everything while the cowling is off and when the oil is drained any moisture or contaminants go bye bye with the old oil. Atleast thats my opinion.

Plus one on this ->After every flight unless i park on the ramp away from the home base i always open my oil filler/dipstick and leave it up a couple inches and the moisture can escape while the engine is warm this greatly reduces condesate in the CC and oil.

[glenn reynolds]

I fly an ovation with the 550 310hp conversion with a full dipstick of 8 quarts.  Engine is new.  the breather put a quart on the belly every three hours with dipstick oil level at 8, at 7 and at minimum of 6.  after about 200 hours of me cleaning the belly way too much, I had the oil changed and the shop made a mistake and overfilled the engine to 9+ quarts.  I went in to ask about draining it and they could/would except that they offered to simply clean the belly they knew how cranky I was about this) when I returned from the flight i was due to leave on.  I called two Mooney specialists who agreed that this would be the only penalty clause.  I flew three hours.  I checked the oil: 9+ quarts!  no kidding.  I've now flown 100 hours additionally (three more oil changes) in this configuration.  I change the oil and filter every 33 hours.  I refill to 9 quarts and usually (but not always) make the full 33 hours with adding only ONE quart additional oil (yup, about ten to fifteen hours per quart)  I've stopped asking mechanics about this issue as most of them want to tear into my engine.  There are plenty of sages on the web who say: "if it ant broke, don't fix it".  I had three mechanics tell me I would cause no harm with the extra quart, they simply said that out it would come.  My own theory is that the configuration of that engine and breather, likes an additional quart.  Maybe I'm wrong and the engine was breaking in and my now broken in engine doesn't need to blow oil?  (I have NO interest in tearing the engine down to find out (this has been suggested twice!!)  I'm not a mechanic and so I don't want to offer you any advice, but I did want to tell my story as I was sooo tired of cleaning my belly.  good luck.  

[carusoam]

Observation...

• I usually have oil filled to 8qts.
• one day it was at 7 qts, so I added another qt.
• after a week or so of down time, the missing qt showed up again. Showing 9 or so...
• apparently the engine and oil cooler can hold a quart tied up for a few days.
• Not Seeing any oil showing up on the belly, or dripping from exhaust pipes.

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

[glenn reynolds]

51 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Observation...

• I usually have oil filled to 8qts.
• one day it was at 7 qts, so I added another qt.
• after a week or so of down time, the missing qt showed up again. Showing 9 or so...
• apparently the engine and oil cooler can hold a quart tied up for a few days.
• Not Seeing any oil showing up on the belly, or dripping from exhaust pipes.

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

I also have seen this several times, so I'm now more cautious to let at least an overnight before I assume I need to add oil.  

[jhbehrens]

I have a 310HP Eagle with the same IO-550, also based in Europe. I installed an airwolf after the 310HP upgrade and it eliminated most belly oil. Recently I went all electric and removed the Airwolf together with the vacuum pump. Now my belly is full of oil again whenever I have more than 6,5 qts. I have never seen the kind of oil leak our Danish flying friends are showing: definitely something wrong there!

I've also seen quarts 'reappear' as Carusoam is saying, especially after a measurements between two flights showed low and then high again a few days later.

Edited March 1, 2018 by jhbehrens

[Piloto]

Oil coming from the separator could be due to:

Separator oil drain (small bottom tube) line kinked or blocked at the engine return.

Engine actually discharging excessive oil amount. Check engine compression

Clogged oil separator. Clean separator.

José

[Piloto]

On ‎2‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 5:00 PM, carusoam said:

Observation...

• I usually have oil filled to 8qts.
• one day it was at 7 qts, so I added another qt.
• after a week or so of down time, the missing qt showed up again. Showing 9 or so...
• apparently the engine and oil cooler can hold a quart tied up for a few days.
• Not Seeing any oil showing up on the belly, or dripping from exhaust pipes.

PP thoughts only...

Best regards,

-a-

Your finding is very common during the winter. I could take up to two week for all the oil to drain down in cold weather.

José

[Wildenschild]

On ‎18‎-‎02‎-‎2018 at 6:01 PM, Little Dipper said:

Plus one on this ->After every flight unless i park on the ramp away from the home base i always open my oil filler/dipstick and leave it up a couple inches and the moisture can escape while the engine is warm this greatly reduces condesate in the CC and oil.

This is the issue! The pipe that is supposed to return the oil to the engine is only Ø3-5 mil in inside diameter. That will probably return some very hot oil in Texas temperatures, but not much in Danish average temperatures. We cleaned the seperator and the tubes.....no difference after an hour flight to Sweden. The same mess. I hate it!

 

[MIm20c]

1 hour ago, Wildenschild said:

This is the issue! The pipe that is supposed to return the oil to the engine is only Ø3-5 mil in inside diameter. That will probably return some very hot oil in Texas temperatures, but not much in Danish average temperatures. We cleaned the seperator and the tubes.....no difference after an hour flight to Sweden. The same mess. I hate it!

 

Do you have a vacuum pump or are you using the ram air retrofit kit?

[ArtVandelay]

This is the issue! The pipe that is supposed to return the oil to the engine is only Ø3-5 mil in inside diameter. That will probably return some very hot oil in Texas temperatures, but not much in Danish average temperatures.

I’m no expert but... I don’t think you should be getting that much oil, we’re talking about small droplets of oil (almost vaporized) that get separated out.

Also I’d have your oil analyzed, never seen white oil like that.

[jhbehrens]

Does anyone on the forum use an airwolf air/oil separator with ram air only - ie without a vacuum pump? Im considering putting mine back as oil on the belly has really become worse since I removed the separator when I took the vacuum system out. Would be interested to hear if this is working from others.

[Wildenschild]

Compression 2 weeks ago 71/72/71/73/74/74 cyl 1,2,3,4,5,6 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Wildenschild

[Wildenschild]

20 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Do you have a vacuum pump or are you using the ram air retrofit kit?

Ram air type.

[Chessieretriever]

The emulsion you are creating in such a short time seems to point to a higher level of "blow-by" gases (mainly CO2 and H2O) from your engine. Obviously this can not be diagnosed with compression numbers alone as the actual conditions found during the combustion process (combustion pressure behind the rings supporting the seal with the cylinder walls) are not present during a leak down test but you may be able to measure the crankcase pressure in operation if your local A&P is able to collaborate with you. You need a transducer that measures in inches or cm of water column. If you are experiencing high crankcase pressures it could be that you either have a.) a crankcase vent system that is compromised (link to your air/oil separator and the leaks you are seeing) or b.) you are generating volumes of gases [via blow-by] that are higher than what the system can candle and you are using the A/O separator as a type of emulsifier (back to causing leaks because your system is overwhelmed). I know that some folks will point out that temperatures will play a role (if the temperature of the gases his higher than the H2O mass fraction saturation temperature then it should not emulsify and show up as "snow") but I doubt that it is the root cause of your problem causing this symptom. One question that comes to mind: does this happen after a longer duration trip as well? I am sure that we will have some vivid discussion on this going forward.

[kmyfm20s]

The separator needs to be the highest point in the vent line. In the Mooney’s it is very difficult to do this with the cowl and baffling. What your seeing on the floor is the condensation not being collected in the separator but collecting past it and exiting on to the floor. FWIW I removed my separator because I didn’t want the condensation to drain back into the engine. Regardless you shouldn’t have that much condensation with or with out the separator. Which as mentioned above is caused excessive blow by. 

[Guest]

On the 2005 Ovation I mentioned, we have cleaned the Air Wolf, relocated the overboard Scat duct, by passsed the Air Wolf completely and gone back to the original configuration, and still lots of oil on the belly.

We have now filled the sump to the 9 quart level and things have improved.  We will be re connecting the Air Wolf shortly.

Clarence