Pireps on firewall forward HP + STC

[Kwixdraw]

Has anyone out here got feedback on FWF's STC to put 10:1 piston in the IO-360 A3B6D. Seems like a reasonable way to get the 210HP of the IO-390 without the crazy cost.  Anyone running there centrilube cam? I'm staying with the standard lifters and thinking any extra lube you can get on them might be a good thing.

[N601RX]

Quote: Kwixdraw

Has anyone out here got feedback on FWF's STC to put 10:1 piston in the IO-360 A3B6D. Seems like a reasonable way to get the 210HP of the IO-390 without the crazy cost.  Anyone running there centrilube cam? I'm staying with the standard lifters and thinking any extra lube you can get on them might be a good thing.

[Kwixdraw]

I don't know about the A1A engine but I would think it would be included. FWF talks like it is done all the time on experimentals and they have just done the leg work to make it possible on certificated aircraft too. Who does the Ney Nozzles?I saw that in AOPA Pilot some time back but couldn't find the company that does the mod.

[Kwixdraw]

Thanks Jim. I was aware that there was a good bit of negative experience with FWF some time back. From the older threads, Doesn't it seem strange they would use .010 over rings in a standard bore?  I can see being careful about the break in and temps but I can't believe they would use oversize rings in a standard bore. For one thing, even if you set the end gaps correctly, my understanding is that they could not be perfectly true circles once they are crammed into an undersized bore. I'll check with LyCon to see what they have to say on the subject.

[N601RX]

Quote: Kwixdraw

Thanks Jim. I was aware that there was a good bit of negative experience with FWF some time back. From the older threads, Doesn't it seem strange they would use .010 over rings in a standard bore?  I can see being careful about the break in and temps but I can't believe they would use oversize rings in a standard bore. For one thing, even if you set the end gaps correctly, my understanding is that they could not be perfectly true circles once they are crammed into an undersized bore. I'll check with LyCon to see what they have to say on the subject.

[N601RX]

Quote: Kwixdraw

I don't know about the A1A engine but I would think it would be included. FWF talks like it is done all the time on experimentals and they have just done the leg work to make it possible on certificated aircraft too. Who does the Ney Nozzles?I saw that in AOPA Pilot some time back but couldn't find the company that does the mod.

[tony]

http://www.chuckneyent.com/neynozzle.asp

 

[Kwixdraw]

I got an email back from Chuck Ney this morning. He is a very direct individual and said he had no experience with the conversion to 10:1 compression but the IO-360 already has a tendency to crack cases, so do whatever you think is a good idea. Message received. So lower end will have Ney prepared cases with Ney Nozzles at least. Thinking maybe a Superior cam. Superior claims to ramp their cams differently to cut down some of the impact on the lifter. Sounds like a good thing. I'm thinking maybe just a good clean 200hp configuration would be just fine.

[John Pleisse]

I owned one for 5 years..inherited it from the previous owner. There is a reason less than a hundred total have wound up in Mooneys and Arrows. There are no appreciable gains (climb or cruise) and it takes an already vibration prone engine and makes it worse. I thought my panel intruments where going to fall out in my lap. The engine got up around 1500 hrs, I balanced the prop twice, went through magnetos, landing lights, lord mounts and panel mounts prematurely. Related to the helicopter pistons? Who knows. I suspected issues with it and saw no performace differences.

That is not to say FWF is not a great shop.....actually they are AWSOME. The "Horespower-Plus" STC, personally didn't work out for me. I got $7k for my core and bought a factory new A3B6 (no D). Want performance? I hear the Top Prop is the way to go and required by the 390 STC. So buy the prop first...what the heck.

[Kwixdraw]

I had a good long talk with Garry Fischer from LyCon today. Very informative fellow, just a wealth of information. He sent me a complete copy of the FWF STC and we discussed it a good bit. Just not as good a thing as it sounds at first glance. Requires hard to find pistons and new heavier rods too. Also requires specific props and is limited to 200HP continuous by limiting MAP.

Seems the angle valve Lycoming is not the preferred engine to hot rod due to piston configuration and weight. LyCon has engines running as high as 14:1 in certain applications (experimental only) but not in the angle valves because the domed pistons  cause more risk of detonation as the ratios go up. Garry had a number of really good suggestions for building a good running IO-360-A3B6D and I think we will have to do some business. I would really recommend you talk with him before deciding how to spend your overhaul dollar.

[Kwixdraw]

Quote: N601RX

We are currently overhauling our engine. I have been going back and fourth between the centri lub cam and the Ney Nozzles that spray extra oil onto the cam.  The Centri lub is $500 to modify your cam, the Ney Nozzles are $245 to add to your case.  Do you know if the 10:1 option is available for the IO 360 A1A or just the A3B6D?

[John Pleisse]

Domed pistons???? Wouldn't that be called..........a HEMI?

I know of a shop doing an IO-390/Top Prop STC right now on a 90's MSE...one of the first. All new, after labor, shipping, tax, title and tags.....$52,000. It'll be interesting to know how the service life of these new engines turns out.

[N601RX]

Quote: Kwixdraw

I had a good long talk with Garry Fischer from LyCon today. Very informative fellow, just a wealth of information. He sent me a complete copy of the FWF STC and we discussed it a good bit. Just not as good a thing as it sounds at first glance. Requires hard to find pistons and new heavier rods too. Also requires specific props and is limited to 200HP continuous by limiting MAP.

Seems the angle valve Lycoming is not the preferred engine to hot rod due to piston configuration and weight. LyCon has engines running as high as 14:1 in certain applications (experimental only) but not in the angle valves because the domed pistons  cause more risk of detonation as the ratios go up. Garry had a number of really good suggestions for building a good running IO-360-A3B6D and I think we will have to do some business. I would really recommend you talk with him before deciding how to spend your overhaul dollar.

[RJBrown]

Domed pistons???? Wouldn't that be called..........a HEMI?

Hemi is short for hemispherical combustion chamber. The shape of the combustion chamber and location of the plug were what made it a HEMI. HEMI is a Dodge trademark word. Most automotive engines today use that type of technology. The term as used by Dodge is pure sales hype. 

[John Pleisse]

Oh I know Randy.....just "jonesin" for comic relief.......point being HEMI is as much of a a non-starter as the HP-Plus STC........

[Sandman993]

Usually here just lurking, but this bugs me...

Y’all are constantly dogging fwf... most have no experience with anything they do. Just about like going to Home Depot and asking the kid in the outside area how to grow a plant...

or ask their competitors what they think... wow!

i can only weigh in with this,...

at the small country Airport in southeast Texas where I come and go, there is a 201 that just showed up recently, a 1978 J... his engine is beyond TBO with over 2100 and hours majored by fwf way back in 1991. I’m here to tell you his engine out performs my stock 201 with ney nozzles that runs like a top! His climb rate beats mine by several hundred fpm. 

Say what you want, it’s a free country, but in this real life example that I’ve seen for myself, it makes some here seem a bit moronic to keep parroting unverifiable, pass it around input... and I’ve noticed this tendency over almost every topic. Human nature I suppose.

[carusoam]

Welcome out in the open, Sandman.

You waited four years to write your first post.

You selected a topic that apparently few people have experience in.  

Calling a discussion moronic probably won’t gain you much favor.  It kind of takes away from what you were trying to say...

Aside from that...

Got any additional experience with the 10:1 CR helicopter Pistons? Effect on HP output, T/O performance numbers, Effect on CHTs, FF changes...

That kind of thing?

There were a couple of challenges with the FWF organization that have been reported.  Kind of throws a shadow over the work they may have performed...

Right up there with MooneyMart.  Lots of unease clouding over any of the good work that the shop was capable of.

Are you going to join the conversation? Or is this just a hit and run?

Why haven’t the high CR pistons been adopted by th Mooney community?  Are they being used by anyone else?  

Sounds like using ignition timing... a small change from 25°BTDC nets a similar result.  A rise in CHTs needs to be managed. The rise in FF is the cost of doing business.

Changing out Pistons takes a little more commitment... at least from an owner’s point of view. Are they going to be additional costs along the way?  A top overhaul?  Will it be ‘worth it’ for some? But not all?

For interesting discussions look up the effects of ignition timing... some pretty knowledgable people giving some actual data from actual Mooney planes.

Join the conversation. Focus on the positive...

If you want to see a technical discussion break out...  share some data and some thoughts in a friendly way.  No barbs required... 

 

Best regards,

-a-

Constantly dogging FWF... this thread was dead since 2011.

[Sandman993]

Sorry, no one said ever that I was diplomatic when expressing a thought. I am however, willing to continue the discussion as I think fwf has had an indelible mark on their work via a few... some from here. I’m in the business of boats and I know all too well that you “can’t please everyone”.

That said, I’m not here to say I know everything... except I too was thinking wow, that fwf bunch must be something. Then out of nowhere, an old fwf engine shows up with a timed out engine and smokes me in takeoff climb by 300fpm in what I think is a beater compared to my ship. Simply wanted to mention that. After my new hanger mate wiped the runway with my airplane... I thought maybe I should look into performance enhancements like that. I immediately received an onslaught of warnings from contemporaries on the evils of helicopter pistons!...and basically from info they got from a few peeps on the innerweb. Those helicopters must be falling out of the air by the dozens! Had I not seen it myself... I too would have thunk this 10-1 compression is too good to be true.

my 201 runs great, but if there’s something out there that gives it 25hp... I want a closer look. All this bad press seems to perpetuate a maybe myth and it may just not be the case. Thanks for responding to my post. 

 

 

[ArtVandelay]

I don’t have the $, but I like to see the 10:1 pistons, power flow exhaust and electronic ignition with variable timing all together.

[N201MKTurbo]

I could go out with just me and 10 gallons of gas and probably smoke any other 201 in climb. You didn't give enough information to evaluate the comparison. It is hard to imagine that a 5% increase in power would make that much difference.

[N201MKTurbo]

3 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I don’t have the $, but I like to see the 10:1 pistons, power flow exhaust and electronic ignition with variable timing all together.

And flames painted on the side!

[N201MKTurbo]

How about nitrous oxide? Guaranteed power there!

[N201MKTurbo]

Everybody wants to hot rod their airplane engines! 

You know if you normally cruise at say 2400 RPM and WOT, you can get more power from just cranking your RPMs up to 2700 then you will from any set of headers or an MSD ignition setup!

Edited March 11, 2018 by N201MKTurbo

[Sandman993]

25 hp added to 200 is more like 12+% increase.

altitude is a horsepower bandit... high da’s are too. An extra 25 would certainly be welcomed trying to get off a 5,000+ ft msl runway! Ask anyone.

to that other fellas mention of variable timing... I checked in via email with an electronic ignition outfit to pose the question of when they might offer that to our certified birds... the response by a fella named klaus was, buy an rv 10, which would make sense except I don’t want an airplane that was made in someone’s garage by a stranger. Besides, I like my magical Mooney.

[N201MKTurbo]

2 minutes ago, Sandman993 said:

25 hp added to 200 is more like 12+% increase.

altitude is a horsepower bandit... high da’s are too. An extra 25 would certainly be welcomed trying to get off a 5,000+ ft msl runway! Ask anyone.

to that other fellas mention of variable timing... I checked in via email with an electronic ignition outfit to pose the question of when they might offer that to our certified birds... the response by a fella named klaus was, buy an rv 10, which would make sense except I don’t want an airplane that was made in someone’s garage by a stranger. Besides, I like my magical Mooney.

Sorry, I just read in the first post that it gives you 210 HP.