kpaul Posted November 6, 2017 Report Posted November 6, 2017 4 hours ago, Andy95W said: But the truth is that 90% of the time navigating by VORs enroute will get you there just fine, after which you'll usually get a visual approach anyway. I never fly VOR to VOR for work or in my personal aircraft. I always back up the GPS with VORs out of habit, but unless the GPS constellation fails or is hacked one of my 3 GPSs is probably going to get me where I am headed. Also, most airfields have RNAV approaches. This weekend I flew an LPV to reported minimums (400 OVC) I actually broke out at about 700AGL. I could not have even attempted going to the field without RNAV capability. VORs are being decommissioned and their associated approaches are being replaced with RNAV. There was a time that I was required to stay current flying NDBs, it is no longer required which is good since it is hard to find an operational NDB. I will fly VOR approaches for currency if one is available, but I will not go searching for one to fly. Heck even ILSs are becoming harder to find, at least ones not down UFN for maintenance. 1
bradp Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 I just upgraded a 430 to a “dubya” and did adsb out. I feel my panel is quite functional for my needs, and support for the 430/530 will at least be around for a few more years. It was also the most cost effective driver to adsb compliance.** I don’t mind doing approaches with a CDI. Did an ILS to essentially mins yesterday with that setup. Really whatever works for you. You will train with the equipment you have and train to that equipment. Some folks aren’t ok with less than an HSI and two axis autopilot. A wing leveler and CDI still works. All on perspective. You have an ILS / CDI now so that’s a great start I’d get the minimal functional equipment and get the darn rating. It will save your butt over and over. See what comes of the experimental stuff. Figure out whether this panel is a need or a want and then make a matrix with your airplane budget (limited or unlimited - most of us have the former). Then figure out what will make the plane inherently safer and simultaneously more functional. Then do some mental gymnastics and arrive at your decision For me that was 1) dual AIs for IMC, 2) and meant any adsb solution would come with a WAAS navigator - mostly for night VMC glidepath and avoidance of dive and drive. Not because I’d be shooting approaches to mins on a weekly basis. This suited the type of flying I do ** for a non GPS equipped airplane a GTX 335 with GPS built in is the single most cost effective method. They are on sale until December. Even better if you want to add a GPS navigator later no big deal the coax is already run and you’ll already have a WAAS antenna. Just switch the cable to your new navigator and run the transponder off the navigator RS-232 signal. Edit: forget about all the fancy avionics and do yourself a favor and get an engine monitor in there. It will literally pay for itself if you fly go far mode and can save your bacon. 1
Marauder Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 I never fly VOR to VOR for work or in my personal aircraft. I always back up the GPS with VORs out of habit, but unless the GPS constellation fails or is hacked one of my 3 GPSs is probably going to get me where I am headed. Also, most airfields have RNAV approaches. This weekend I flew an LPV to reported minimums (400 OVC) I actually broke out at about 700AGL. I could not have even attempted going to the field without RNAV capability. VORs are being decommissioned and their associated approaches are being replaced with RNAV. There was a time that I was required to stay current flying NDBs, it is no longer required which is good since it is hard to find an operational NDB. I will fly VOR approaches for currency if one is available, but I will not go searching for one to fly. Heck even ILSs are becoming harder to find, at least ones not down UFN for maintenance. I think a lot depends on where you fly. I’m almost always on victor airways in the northeast. If I get a direct routing, I run out and buy a lottery ticket when I land I think the points most of us were making above have to do with investing in a plane he clearly only plans on keeping for several years. I flew with just VORs and a VFR GPS until 2012. The only reason I installed a GPS was to your point about the VOR approaches disappearing. A couple of airports I fly to in New York are GPS approach only now. And I do agree that even if I am on a victor airway, having the GPS fly it using GPSS is oh so nice.Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1
gsxrpilot Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 It never pays to upgrade a plane you're planning on selling. Expect to get back 1/4 of what you spend on the upgrade. I wish I had a lot of the money back that I spent on my C. And if I ever sell the 252, I'm gonna lose plenty. But I don't plan on selling and am enjoying building the plane I want to fly. 4
Jerry 5TJ Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said: It never pays to upgrade a plane you're planning on selling. Expect to get back 1/4 of what you spend on the upgrade..... True enough. My last two planes had been extensively upgraded by their previous owners. It is an anti-CB stance -- pay some more to get a lot more. Edited November 7, 2017 by Jerry 5TJ 2
Jerry 5TJ Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 3 hours ago, Marauder said: I think a lot depends on where you fly. I’m almost always on victor airways in the northeast. If I get a direct routing, I run out and buy a lottery ticket.... Yes, we get a lot of victor airway clearances here on the right coast. But I find that ATC often bypasses a lengthy list of fixes I've pushed into the GTN750 from my iPad -- they clear me direct to a fix near the destination. So then it's "touch, push, push," a new magenta line slices across the screens and the plane turns to follow as I take my coffee mug out of the cup holder and mutter to myself, "Do some of that pilot s**t, Maverick." 2
NJMac Posted November 7, 2017 Author Report Posted November 7, 2017 Appreciate the feedback everyone. Id say this could be our forever plane if I left the dogs or wife at home. Id probably choose to leave the wife. I mentioned that to her last night and it didnt go so well. Too bad Mooney doesnt have a 6 place, then i wouldn't have to disappoint my wife. LolSent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
NJMac Posted November 7, 2017 Author Report Posted November 7, 2017 (edited) Anyone have any cautions about installing a gtx 345? Id really like to at least start with the adsb and having "in" seems to just make sense. Is there a better option to accomplish the same objective? My wife hasnt said no to the $18k trial balloon that was first floated. So Im thinking i might get hard numbers for the 345, 650, and a new audio pannel. We're not necessarily hard for money so if i dont get a good return financailly, i guess ill chalk it up to the expense of enjoying life. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk Edited November 7, 2017 by NJMac
jetdriven Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 The 345 is about 6k laid in. The box it’s self is $5000. The 335 is three grand and it has its own GPS. It does not have ADSB in but it still two grand cheaper 1
Skates97 Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 1 hour ago, NJMac said: Anyone have any cautions about installing a gtx 345? Id really like to at least start with the adsb and having "in" seems to just make sense. Is there a better option to accomplish the same objective? My wife hasnt said no to the $18k trial balloon that was first floated. So Im thinking i might get hard numbers for the 345, 650, and a new audio pannel. We're not necessarily hard for money so if i dont get a good return financailly, i guess ill chalk it up to the expense of enjoying life. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk If all you are looking for is ADS-B in (out isn't required for a couple more years and sounds like you might sell by then) for right now just order the pieces off Amazon and build a Stratux. It will be about $110-130 and you will have free weather and traffic on a tablet. I've been enjoying it for months. 2
NJMac Posted November 7, 2017 Author Report Posted November 7, 2017 If all you are looking for is ADS-B in (out isn't required for a couple more years and sounds like you might sell by then) for right now just order the pieces off Amazon and build a Stratux. It will be about $110-130 and you will have free weather and traffic on a tablet. I've been enjoying it for months. The sad reality is i dont really know what i want to do right now. Maybe best not to start spending until i do....Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk 2
Marauder Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 Anyone have any cautions about installing a gtx 345? Id really like to at least start with the adsb and having "in" seems to just make sense. Is there a better option to accomplish the same objective? My wife hasnt said no to the $18k trial balloon that was first floated. So Im thinking i might get hard numbers for the 345, 650, and a new audio pannel. We're not necessarily hard for money so if i dont get a good return financailly, i guess ill chalk it up to the expense of enjoying life. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk The 345 is a nice box. I have flown in planes with them and they connect nicely to my Garmin Pilot. It will also work with ForeFlight but none of the other apps. So if you are using FlyQ, WingX, FltPln Go or any of the other apps, you won’t get weather & traffic on these apps. You should decide as jetdriven mentions whether you need the ADS-B in or not. If you don’t, the 335 makes sense. The 345 comes in two flavors. The one with the internal GPS and the other one that uses the plane’s WAAS GPS. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro 1
gsxrpilot Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 Here's my line of thinking on this... and I went through it with my previous Mooney. Install a WAAS GPS. I like the Garmin 750, but I'd certainly go Avidyne IFD 440 before I'd install a Garmin 650. Since the GPS has the WAAS signal, the cheapest way to ADSB compliance is a 335ES off the used market. Get one for $2000. Now you just need the "in" part. The cheapest way to ADSB IN is a Stratus/ForeFlight/iPad... which is arguably better/easier to use/etc then a panel mount system anyway. Get a quote on purchase and install of the IFD440, plus the install of a used 335ES transponder purchased from @Alan Fox. Add a used Stratus2 with ForeFlight on an iPad and you're done. 3
Andy95W Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 If all you are really looking for is ADSB functionality, here is a solution that will make you 'Out' legal and give you 'In' capability on a screen larger than a GNS-430 plus connectivity to your iPad using either ForeFlight or Garmin Pilot. Total cost (not including installation of the GDL-82)- $2993. GDL-82: $1795: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/st/manu_gar_adsb/garmingdl82gps11-15319.php Garmin Aera 510: $599 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/st/manu_gar_gps/garminaera510amer.php GDL-39: $599: http://www.aircraftspruce.com/pages/st/manu_gar_adsb/gdl39.php The Garmin Aera gets hard wired to the GDL-39 and can be connected to aircraft power with one wire and a fuse, the iPad is Bluetooth. Additionally, the Aera is wired into my audio so it tells me things like "Traffic! traffic!" And "Obstacle!" and "Terrain ahead, pull up!" To make it even cheaper, find a used GDL-39 and a used Aera 500. 1
MIm20c Posted November 7, 2017 Report Posted November 7, 2017 2 hours ago, NJMac said: The sad reality is i dont really know what i want to do right now. Maybe best not to start spending until i do.... Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk If you want to do weekly trips to northern MI (Friday to Sunday) you need an IFR. If this was my plane I’d spend for a 430w, 330es, and a used audio panel (340/8000). 2
bradp Posted November 8, 2017 Report Posted November 8, 2017 Just did ^^ upgrade exactly. Here’s what I spent: Used good condition 430W: $6000 Used flight stream 210 = $750 Used 330ES = $1600 - rebate = $1100 Used 8000Bti Audio panel = $1100 Labor = my enjoyment / sanity Misc supplies transponder cert IA 337/logbook = ~$500 Total = $9450. Having a functional panel that will probably last me through my journey with my aircraft - priceless (family is growing- wife thinking about whether plane will suit our future needs - I guess that’s a good problem to have, right ) 2
Marauder Posted November 8, 2017 Report Posted November 8, 2017 Just did ^^ upgrade exactly. Here’s what I spent: Used good condition 430W: $6000 Used flight stream 210 = $750 Used 330ES = $1600 - rebate = $1100 Used 8000Bti Audio panel = $1100 Labor = my enjoyment / sanity Misc supplies transponder cert IA 337/logbook = ~$500 Total = $9450. It must be Election Day! I vote for Brad to be our new Cheap Bastard President. All hail POTCBC. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro 1 2
bradp Posted November 8, 2017 Report Posted November 8, 2017 I’m just saving up my avionics pennies for the G5 HSI (which I’m thinking I’ll do over the winter) and GFC-500 autopilot. I’m not going to count my chickens but my CB move is the real cost will be about half that total I listed because I’m selling the old GNS-430. That’s the real CB checkmate. Plan for the G5-HSI. $3000 for the unit. Sell the GI-106 that I’ll need to remove per the STC anyway - get a magnetometer, HSI and GPSS for about $1500. At that point I’ll have one vacuum AI and 4 - count em - 4 AHARS. 2x redundant G5s with 4 hr batteries each (could turn one off and then the other and have 8 hrs of emergency attitude source - unreal). 1x FS-210 and 1x stratus. I really should be able to keep the blue side up. ;-p 2
carusoam Posted November 9, 2017 Report Posted November 9, 2017 See if I have this correctly... NJM, are you sitting while reading this one? 1) Guy wants a new-ish GPS to mount in his plane. Has a couple of dogs, and a wife... 2) On the table is a small stack... big enough to get a used 430w or a good part of something new from either Big G or Avidyne... big enough to be deployed as working capital covering some commercial real-estate. Where this dough, grows to cover a bigger plane...that comes complete with other Big G boxes installed by the previous owner... 3) Guy's wife has a small plan too... a pair of kids... What's the total cost of one of these items? How about just a yearly cost of a healthy one? (US Gov estimates about 1amu per month, ending at age 18, prior to college...) Can we use ROI analysis on these? 4) I need to go back to Marauder's threads on how he made this whole family/airplane/funky modern panel thing work... 5) Things that have been proven to work... Long term plans... building on each step, one step at a time. stay the course... buying a forever plane that is fully instrumented...knowing forever is a long time... When the kids leave the house, celebrate, release the hounds... get a GTN, Aspen, and JPI... Buy cool things each year... Don't wait to get started. Let me know if I missed something. Best regards, -a- 3
NJMac Posted November 9, 2017 Author Report Posted November 9, 2017 (edited) 4 hours ago, carusoam said: See if I have this correctly... NJM, are you sitting while reading this one? 1) Guy wants a new-ish GPS to mount in his plane. Has a couple of dogs, and a wife... 2) On the table is a small stack... big enough to get a used 430w or a good part of something new from either Big G or Avidyne... big enough to be deployed as working capital covering some commercial real-estate. Where this dough, grows to cover a bigger plane...that comes complete with other Big G boxes installed by the previous owner... 3) Guy's wife has a small plan too... a pair of kids... What's the total cost of one of these items? How about just a yearly cost of a healthy one? (US Gov estimates about 1amu per month, ending at age 18, prior to college...) Can we use ROI analysis on these? 4) I need to go back to Marauder's threads on how he made this whole family/airpolane/funky modern panel thing work... 5) Things that have been proven to work... Long term plans... building on each step, one step at a time. stay the course... buying a forever plane that is fully instrumented...knowing forever is a long time... When the kids leave the house, celebrate, release the hounds... get a GTN, Aspen, and JPI... Buy cool things each year... Don't wait to get started. Let me know if I missed something. Best regards, -a- Love it. Guess part of the problem is wife and i dont really have a plan or a budget that we live by. She wants kids. Thats going to happen by hook or by crook. I really hadn't considered the overall cost of the kids TBH. The business has needed real estate in the past and will in the future again. We just pulled the 20% down pmt from our savings. Love the 12 year amortization on buildings. Too many ideas and shiny things catch my attention. Hard to keep to a plan when I just want a nice plane to cruise the skies in. The E I have now is plenty for the dogs and I. The plan gets blurry wondering if wife wants to fly with me and if / when kids will have fit in too. Edited November 9, 2017 by NJMac
NJMac Posted November 9, 2017 Author Report Posted November 9, 2017 Considering adding an engine monitor. EDM 830 or 900? Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Marauder Posted November 9, 2017 Report Posted November 9, 2017 33 minutes ago, NJMac said: Considering adding an engine monitor. EDM 830 or 900? Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk JPI 900, 930 or the EI MVP unit. I would spend the extra money on something that can act as a primary unit. Will allow you to either immediately remove factory installed factory gauges or remove them when they fail or keep them as redundant gauges. 3
NJMac Posted November 9, 2017 Author Report Posted November 9, 2017 JPI 900, 930 or the EI MVP unit. I would spend the extra money on something that can act as a primary unit. Will allow you to either immediately remove factory installed factory gauges or remove them when they fail or keep them as redundant gauges. Removing guages was the idea. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk
Marauder Posted November 9, 2017 Report Posted November 9, 2017 Just now, NJMac said: Removing guages was the idea. Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk I ended up removing all of my factory gauges. I had replaced the MP & RPM with EI primary gauges prior to adding the JPI but kept them even though I added a JPI. Not sure which model of plane you have. The factory gauges are pretty robust, but they do fail and removing them for repair is no different than removing a primary JPI unit for repair. The big issue with our planes is some of these factory gauges are getting to be in the 50 year old range. I have flown in some 1960s vintage Mooneys and often see that cluster gauge with one or two gauges not working. I like to have them all working, all the time. 1
NJMac Posted November 9, 2017 Author Report Posted November 9, 2017 I ended up removing all of my factory gauges. I had replaced the MP & RPM with EI primary gauges prior to adding the JPI but kept them even though I added a JPI. Not sure which model of plane you have. The factory gauges are pretty robust, but they do fail and removing them for repair is no different than removing a primary JPI unit for repair. The big issue with our planes is some of these factory gauges are getting to be in the 50 year old range. I have flown in some 1960s vintage Mooneys and often see that cluster gauge with one or two gauges not working. I like to have them all working, all the time. Its a 64 E. That was also a comment that for the cost of a few rebuilt guages would equal a new JPISent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk 1
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