My Dream Gadget Just released - Garmin G500 TXi

[Marauder]

Was looking at another board, and I saw this post from a Marauder a long time ago. Was this you? If so Im definitely interested in your experience.
" I have been flying for 25 years, 22 of it in the same steam gauge Mooney with dual Nav/Coms, dual ILS CDIs, ADF and even a LORAN to boot. My closest thing to "glass" was a portable GPS that I updated every few years. Last December I finally upgraded to glass (Aspen 2000) and a WAAS GPS.

IMHO the improvement in situational awareness and the redundancy was well worth it. For those who say an electrical failure will disable a glass cockpit, try flying an ILS to mins when that same electrical failure hits your electric driven Nav radios and CDI. My Aspens are capable of full reversion and both have battery back-ups. They even can maintain the GPS flight plan information in case it goes down. I like my odds better today.

I still have a vacuum AI and elected to keep my ASI and altimeter because I do like redundancy. My only regret is that I waited so long..."
 
If this was you, how long did you keep your AI and ASI? I'm feeling the same way this poster did about redundancy.  Did you ever look at it once you installed your glass? Do you wish you had gone from all steam to all glass, or mostly glass then all glass like it seems like you did?
 
 
 

It was indeed the same Marauder. Written 5 years ago. When the upgrade was finished in December 2012, I had kept the ASI and altimeter along with the required standby vacuum AI. I had to ween myself from the steam ASI by flying with it covered up because it was so ingrained in me to use it.

I finally made the jump to all glass in March of this year. And like in 2012, I don’t know why I waited so long. The ESI is more than a capable backup to those mechanical gauges. And I find I am more precise on airspeeds and altitude because I am looking at numbers, not needle positions.

The only thing I am still considering is the addition of a B&C standby alternator to sit on the now vacant vacuum pad and provide power to the Nav units.


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[JohnB]

Just pulled the trigger today. Getting my TXi installed at the end of this month. Lots of things to configure, as I'm also getting the engine monitor EIS as well, but apparently this is very configurable and customizable at install. Ill keep you all posted.

[JohnB]

I'm curious for those of you who have gone from steam to all glass, like @donkaye and @Marauder have, have you removed your vacuum and standby vacuum pumps from your airplane? if you have, how much did weight did you get back or are they still in your airplane?

[donkaye]

10 minutes ago, JohnB said:

I'm curious for those of you who have gone from steam to all glass, like @donkaye and @Marauder have, have you removed your vacuum and standby vacuum pumps from your airplane? if you have, how much did weight did you get back or are they still in your airplane?

All gone.  Not sure in that the airplane was reweighed after my upgrade and I picked up at least 10 pounds of useful load.  Then picked up another 6 pounds with the change to LED strobes and nav lights.

[carusoam]

JohnB,

Some Things to consider...

1) Fortunately the panel weight of the Long Bodies isn’t that great compared to some of the older Mooneys...

2) But, there are a few extra radios like ADF, separate GPS, and DME that will probably be removed...

3) Some things can be remoted to the back.... Audio Panel and transponder...

4) the primary vac pump doesn’t weigh very much and the second alternator replaces it....

5) A JPI that eliminates a bunch of primary gauges might be on your list. Kind of light weight items...

6) The big weight saver might not help...  the back-up vac pump and electric motor that goes with it weighs a few pounds.  To get an increase in UL... you need to take out balancing amounts of weight from in front of the center of lift as well as aft of the CL...

7) If you tossed the back-up vac system with no other changes... you would have to add the same amount of Charlie weights in the back...

8) To provide an estimate to see what you have to work with... add up all the stuff that is coming out of the panel and the weight of the vac system in the back... 20 pounds here, 20pounds there...?  The modern POH gives good detail....

9) Will you be going with a new MT prop?

10) it doesn’t look like there is much an estimate can do.  A real WnB based on the actual equipment coming out and the equipment going in is pretty easy to accomplish...

Definitely something you want to consider at the time you are ordering equipment. Especially when considering remote mounting things... 

I have a lot of lead in the tail. I would need to remote mount as many things as possible, moving them from panel to tail, to get any value...

Ya See?

PP thoughts only, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

I'm curious for those of you who have gone from steam to all glass, like [mention=7354]donkaye[/mention] and [mention=9886]Marauder[/mention] have, have you removed your vacuum and standby vacuum pumps from your airplane? if you have, how much did weight did you get back or are they still in your airplane?

I think mine was closer to 12 pounds. I had some heavy relics in the panel.


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[JohnB]

Great thanks Marauder, Caruso and Don!! Huge help! Another prop Caruso? No I think my prop is good for now. Helping with my decision point of using a few good round gauges as my backup or go all electronic, as I do not have much all glass time, and I think I'm thinking like Marauder did when he went mostly glass first then all glass later, that I like the redundancy and I just am skeptical of all computer anything, particularly when it comes to equipment that for safety of me and my passengers might completely rely on in the soup, but i would imagine this fear may pass with familiarity and I may make that leap down the road. But if I do keep a few round ones, (AI/HSI/AS/ALT), even though I might get more cool panel looks by getting only glass,  I might have one of the most redundant system equipped planes in the fleet if I kept a few round ones as I already have 2 alternators, 2 batteries, 2 vacuum systems which I know is ludicrous redundancy, but I like it!

[ArtVandelay]

All gone.  Not sure in that the airplane was reweighed after my upgrade and I picked up at least 10 pounds of useful load.  Then picked up another 6 pounds with the change to LED strobes and nav lights.

My MSC didn’t do new W&B for my LEDs, removing 2 power supplies and added tail strobe, said it was negligible
Do you have the W&B numbers, I’m keeping a separate spreadsheet with corrected values.

[Marauder]

Great thanks Marauder, Caruso and Don!! Huge help! Another prop Caruso? No I think my prop is good for now. Helping with my decision point of using a few good round gauges as my backup or go all electronic, as I do not have much all glass time, and I think I'm thinking like Marauder did when he went mostly glass first then all glass later, that I like the redundancy and I just am skeptical of all computer anything, particularly when it comes to equipment that for safety of me and my passengers might completely rely on in the soup, but i would imagine this fear may pass with familiarity and I may make that leap down the road. But if I do keep a few round ones, (AI/HSI/AS/ALT), even though I might get more cool panel looks by getting only glass,  I might have one of the most redundant system equipped planes in the fleet if I kept a few round ones as I already have 2 alternators, 2 batteries, 2 vacuum systems which I know is ludicrous redundancy, but I like it!

I’m not quite sure what my fear was. I flew for 23 years with no backups other than a VFR GPS on the yoke. And to boot using a mechanical vacuum pump at the center of it all.

The new glass stuff has way more backup capability than those mechanical instruments. Just need to know their capability and limitations. With an Aspen 2000 and ESI-500 in the panel, there is plenty of redundancy.


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[amillet]

4 hours ago, teejayevans said:

My MSC didn’t do new W&B for my LEDs, removing 2 power supplies and added tail strobe, said it was negligible
Do you have the W&B numbers, I’m keeping a separate spreadsheet with corrected values.

Here’s my revised W&B for LEDs

[JohnB]

This is the very last picture of my panel pre upgrade taken right before I turned in my Trillian this week to the avionics shop for G500txi install. In going through the txi course, and looking at all of its features, I’m not sure I’ll need any more upgrades! (Ha! I know famous last words) install happening. 

[JohnB]

Update 4/21/18.

Install nearly completed, was supposedly going to be complete 3 days ago, but snag in the engine information system (EIS) portion of the TXi. My plan was to use the TXi to ONLY replace the factory OEM gauges and keep my 830 as backup and monitor for everything else. Well, I found out last week that there's a clause in Garmin’s EIS install manual of the TXI that says:

5.  No indicator/parameter on the EIS display can be duplicated on any other installed indicator.

WT*! (this item 5 seems awfully broad and overreaching to me)

This item 5 verbage shot my plan of keeping my 830 as secondary as is, in case the EIS went belly up, I would still have engine monitoring like I had with my OEM gauges and my 830. May still keep my 830 and delete the parameters that are duplicates on the EIS, but also working on a  problem with two of the gauges on the EIS, everything else is working perfectly. Thought I was going to show you all a happy installed picture by now, but delayed.  Fingers crossed that Garmin will assist to make my TXi install work!

 

John

[carusoam]

Great update, John...

Does seem odd and over-reaching to exclude the use of your 830...

I would understand the part that they want you to buy all the details for the TXi... 

But  excluding the use of a typical back up system sounds a bit over the top...

As a customer, i’m Over the top getting back-up systems... Always a plan B to go with...

 

See if they can supply the logic of why they don’t want you to use your back-up engine monitoring device?

does their two screen system back up the instrument data as well?  In the event of a single screen operation...?

 

Questions of a PP, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

[gsxrpilot]

Hmmm... if the primary engine gauges died, the 830 doesn't seem like a legal back up anyway as it's not certified Primary for anything. Sure it will get you to the ground, but I don't imagine you'd actually need one just to get on the ground. 

What am I missing here?

[JohnB]

28 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm... if the primary engine gauges died, the 830 doesn't seem like a legal back up anyway as it's not certified Primary for anything. Sure it will get you to the ground, but I don't imagine you'd actually need one just to get on the ground. 

What am I missing here?

Not missing anything, just a secondary, I think its nice to have something that's somewhat reliable in case of screen failure to get you down and help you with the decision to land NOW or land when you get to your shop choice. I have had a few times where one of my factory gauges went bonky (once I remember that my factory primary oil temperature gauges pegged full hot suddenly , but ALL of my other factory gauges including the same gauge on my 830 were stone cold normal), and since i had the same information on a secondary 830, it was a non emergent issue and allowed me to continue to my repair shop rather than landing somewhere else. (the bonky gauge decided to start working 20 minutes later into the flight)

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

Great update, John...

Does seem odd and over-reaching to exclude the use of your 830...

I would understand the part that they want you to buy all the details for the TXi... 

But  excluding the use of a typical back up system sounds a bit over the top...

As a customer, i’m Over the top getting back-up systems... Always a plan B to go with...

 

See if they can supply the logic of why they don’t want you to use your back-up engine monitoring device?

does their two screen system back up the instrument data as well?  In the event of a single screen operation...?

 

Questions of a PP, not a mechanic...

Best regards,

-a-

 

I agree with you on over the top backup! I don't know their logic. But its clear they don't want you looking at anything else other than Garmin! I would very much like to. Their one screen does not revert as im aware. But I have a backup for navigation in case the TXI goes, but not engine monitoring if I use their recommended solution. But that's pretty much the same for any replacement primary engine indicator if you only have one system for that. May just have to get used to having only one.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, JohnB said:

Not missing anything, just a secondary, I think its nice to have something that's somewhat reliable in case of screen failure to get you down and help you with the decision to land NOW or land when you get to your shop choice. I have had a few times where one of my factory gauges went bonky (once I remember that my factory primary oil temperature gauges pegged full hot suddenly , but ALL of my other factory gauges including the same gauge on my 830 were stone cold normal), and since i had the same information on a secondary 830, it was a non emergent issue and allowed me to continue to my repair shop rather than landing somewhere else. (the bonky gauge decided to start working 20 minutes later into the flight)

I agree with you on over the top backup! I don't know their logic. But its clear they don't want you looking at anything else other than Garmin! I would very much like to. Their one screen does not revert as im aware. But I have a backup for navigation in case the TXI goes, but not engine monitoring if I use their recommended solution. But that's pretty much the same for any replacement primary engine indicator if you only have one system for that. May just have to get used to having only one.

If you lose the 7" EIS you still have the information on the large screen of the 10.6" Display either on the side or on a separate EIS page on the MFD.  So, as long as you have MP and RPM you are in good shape.

My revised panel will be back next Wednesday.  Shipping of the Display will be on the 25th of next month.  I expect to have my latest upgrade completed near the end of the 1st week in June.  Now if Garmin would just certify the GFC 600 for the Bravo...

[JohnB]

6 minutes ago, donkaye said:

If you lose the 7" EIS you still have the information on the large screen of the 10.6" Display either on the side or on a separate EIS page on the MFD.  So, as long as you have MP and RPM you are in good shape.

My revised panel will be back next Wednesday.  Shipping of the Display will be on the 25th of next month.  I expect to have my latest upgrade completed near the end of the 1st week in June.

You're right as always Don! I only have room for one 10.6" display, but if one were to have room for two 7" displays, or a 7 and a 10.6"  one of them failing would revert to the eis strip on the other one. I'm still hoping that Garmin will let me keep my 830 as backup, then all is right in the world! (Wishful thinking now with their item 5 verbage   ) Interesting, I didn't think you would have to get a new panel just to go from 500 to 500TXi because of size, but i totally understand now how even a 1/2 inch difference can force a new panel.

[M016576]

5 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Hmmm... if the primary engine gauges died, the 830 doesn't seem like a legal back up anyway as it's not certified Primary for anything. Sure it will get you to the ground, but I don't imagine you'd actually need one just to get on the ground. 

What am I missing here?

You need a legal primary to fly from the FAA perspective.  If your primary systems fail, then anything left is fair game to use in the event you utter the magic E-word.

the real question is this, I think... if the EDM-830 is not certified for primary (which it isn’t), then you need to keep the original ships gauges.  If that’s the case, the you need 2 senders... or a splitter.. for each indication (oil p, oil t, fuel p, etc).  Some might say that Is redundancy... but in the case of a fluid sender- If one fails materially, it’s possible to lose all pressure on the system. So you might actually be increasing risk by adding a second monitor. Crazy, right?

 

rocket- I know you’re loving formation flying.  The best “ifr backup” we have in the fast-jet business is another jet... lose your primary flight instruments? No problem, just fly “close” (“parade”, if you’re a navy guy) formation off a flight lead, through the clouds on an instrument approach, and once he achieves VMC, transition to an all visual approach.  Just something to consider if you’re really in a bind.  Honestly, not sure about the legality of that in the GA world- but it’s a normal and expected “thing” in the USAF and USN while In the US airspace structure so I’d suspect that it’s legal by FAA standards.  We call it (predictably) a “formation approach.”

 

[gsxrpilot]

7 hours ago, M016576 said:

rocket- I know you’re loving formation flying.  The best “ifr backup” we have in the fast-jet business is another jet... lose your primary flight instruments? No problem, just fly “close” (“parade”, if you’re a navy guy) formation off a flight lead, through the clouds on an instrument approach, and once he achieves VMC, transition to an all visual approach.  Just something to consider if you’re really in a bind.  Honestly, not sure about the legality of that in the GA world- but it’s a normal and expected “thing” in the USAF and USN while In the US airspace structure so I’d suspect that it’s legal by FAA standards.  We call it (predictably) a “formation approach.”

 

Yep, just got back home from 1.5 hours formation time this morning 

I've never been IMC in formation, but we have filed IFR for a flight of three and ATC didn't have any questions. We started up, picked up our clearance as usual, taxied out to wait for release, and took off. Lead was the only one talking to ATC but 2 and 3 could hear the clearance was for the "flight of 3".   About two hours into the flight we started getting into IMC conditions and since we had three separate destinations we asked ATC to split us up. It was easy and very straight forward, as if they'd done it many times.

I'm sure I'd be fine descending through a layer while in "close trail" as we call it.  This morning we went into close trail to climb out through a broken layer. It allows for freedom of maneuvering to get up through a hole and out on top.  We were in class Golf, so "clear of clouds" was the requirement.

[M016576]

2 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

Yep, just got back home from 1.5 hours formation time this morning 

I've never been IMC in formation, but we have filed IFR for a flight of three and ATC didn't have any questions. We started up, picked up our clearance as usual, taxied out to wait for release, and took off. Lead was the only one talking to ATC but 2 and 3 could hear the clearance was for the "flight of 3".   About two hours into the flight we started getting into IMC conditions and since we had three separate destinations we asked ATC to split us up. It was easy and very straight forward, as if they'd done it many times.

I'm sure I'd be fine descending through a layer while in "close trail" as we call it.  This morning we went into close trail to climb out through a broken layer. It allows for freedom of maneuvering to get up through a hole and out on top.  We were in class Golf, so "clear of clouds" was the requirement.

The first time you fly form in close on someone’s wing, it’s a bit white knuckled.  Once you get used to it though it becomes second nature.  That’s how I first really saw how different clouds could be... by flying through them at 350kts within 3 feet of another jet.  Sometimes you can see the other plane/tanker a mile and a half away, and still be “in the clouds.”  We call that the milk bowl.  Sometimes all you see is the wing tip and formation light of the other jet... that’s when you know it’s really thick!

thats good to know that Formations are treated pretty much the same whether you’re a military jet or a GA formation.

when we fly as a 2,3 or 4-ship on an IFR flight plan in the military, we are considered a “standard formation” any time we’re within 1 mile of one another.  Then only 1 jet needs to have their mode C on.  If we’re “non-standard” typically we’re flying in some sort of radar assisted trail departure, and both the lead and trail jets of the formation have their transponders on.  When you guys are flying formation: do you all have your transponders on, or just the flight lead?

[gsxrpilot]

Flight lead carries the squawk code. The rest of the flight has transponders off.

You should really come fly formation with us. Come to Oshkosh and fly the Caravan arrival with us.

[M016576]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

Flight lead carries the squawk code. The rest of the flight has transponders off.

You should really come fly formation with us. Come to Oshkosh and fly the Caravan arrival with us.

I’d love to do that, it’s on my dream list.. which I’ve been kicking down the road for the past couple years.  Sadly it won’t happen this year (again), as I’m moving down to Phoenix and transitioning to a new airframe this summer- probably won’t have much time for the mooney

[Bryan]

Having done the clinic this spring, the first flight was albeit ‘white knuckle’ and wore me out. It got easier and easier. My plan is to fly some more formation soon with you guys. I have always wondered about IMC and formation.

@John B look forward to seeing some pictures. I am currently on steam gauges with a GTN 750 as my primary navigation. I have the older EDM 700 and still trying to decide what glass to do. It’s either an Aspen + EDM 900 or TXi with EIS.

I have a mid body sized panel so also need to figure out what will fit.

[JohnB]

1 hour ago, Bryan said:

 

@John B look forward to seeing some pictures. I am currently on steam gauges with a GTN 750 as my primary navigation. I have the older EDM 700 and still trying to decide what glass to do. It’s either an Aspen + EDM 900 or TXi with EIS.

I have a mid body sized panel so also need to figure out what will fit.

Sure! I am right there. A lot will be decided tomorrow and next week as to my equipment ill end up with, and I'll post why I chose what I did, based on LOTS of thought and experience with this install. Ill be needing a nice beverage after my first successful flight with everything working, hope that's soon!

[JohnB]

Panel In! Trillian has an upgrade! A G500 TXi and an Aspen Pro Evolution PFD with backup battery. New behind the panel is a is a wx 500 remote stormscope. I looked closely at my backup options including original steam gauges, l3 ESI 500, and aspen pro backup. Chose the aspen backup as it has a two hour battery, synthetic vision, can track two Nav sources, has a dual HSI  display which I like and has emergency gps ( it keeps your last gps course so that you can fly it, unlike the others if you actually lose all electrical power, you would lose all gps info). Have to especially thank @donkaye and @Marauder ( I watched your you tube video on your aspen) and all of you that helped on this thread with my decisions along the way, thanks! Still working out issues with the engine monitoring eis system, but the txi display is so incredibly clear, makes every other display including the gtn 750 look like a so so you tube video compared with the latest 4K ultra high def tv in your airplane, love it!