Should we Still Teach Old Tech??

[donkaye]

Should we learn how to use an Abacus?  An old adding machine?  A manual 1940 typewriter?  A slide rule?  It's great that they were around to help save time in the olden days, but they are useless in today's world.  So is the E6B.  There's enough new useful technology to teach students how to make flying safer.  We need not waste time on the old.  Like the Commodore 64 and the Model T Ford, a good place to view them is in a museum.

[N201MKTurbo]

I have a bubble sextant. I also have the last published Air Almanac (1999). I was curious so I bought the stuff and taught myself celestial navigation. I never tried it in the air, it would be a lot of work for a single pilot. I have never been able to get the position of my house closer than 7nm to the real position. My averager is broken and I can't find the part I need for it. 7 miles is 7 seconds, so you need to get skills at looking at your watch and recording the time to coordinate with the star elevation.

The current Air Almanac is available on line:

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/publications/reports/aira17_all.pdf

Edited September 4, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[N201MKTurbo]

OK, I have to confess. I just installed an Avidyne IFD550.

I have been a /A pilot for ever. I rarely flew an plane with a Garmin and never get totally proficient with it. When I was taking my ATP check ride I got confused with the 530 and had to revert to the nav comm.

At this point I would fly you anywhere IFR with a single VOR.

I have gone from being an expert IFR pilot to someone who has no idea how to fly IFR...

I'm going out to the airport in a little while and heading to the stack to try it again. I just re-read the approach chapter in the manual and will see if works better this time. I have scheduled some time next week with an instructor who claims to know how to work this thing.

IFR used to be so simple, now it seems so complex! I thought these things were supposed to make it easier!

Edited September 4, 2017 by N201MKTurbo

[EricJ]

40 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

OK, I have to confess. I just installed an Avidyne IFD550.

I have been a /A pilot for ever. I rarely flew an plane with a Garmin and never get totally proficient with it. When I was taking my ATP check ride I got confused with the 530 and had to revert to the nav comm.

At this point I would fly you anywhere IFR with a single VOR.

I have gone from being an expert IFR pilot to someone who has no idea how to fly IFR...

I'm going out to the airport in a little while and heading to the stack to try it again. I just re-read the approach chapter in the manual and will see if works better this time. I have scheduled some time next week with an instructor who claims to know how to work this thing.

IFR used to be so simple, now it seems so complex! I thought these things were supposed to make it easier!

I haven't used an IFD550, but I've played with the simulator quite a bit and found it very intuitive and easy, especially compared to a Garmin 430 or 530, which are usable but basically a pain in the butt in comparison.    There's a 430 in the Arrow I fly and while I do love it, the user interface leaves a lot to be desired.   Just based on playing with the simulators, the newer Avidyne and Garmin units are a huge leap forward.

I bet once you get used to it even a little bit you'll love it and wonder how you got by without it.   My plan is to put one of those in my panel, too.

Edit:  To stay on-topic, given this level of integration in the cockpit, and that an E6B was just a computing tool like anything else, I don't see a reason why any particular computing tool technology has to be taught if it's no longer relevant.   Power failure?   My tablet still works, so does my phone in my pocket, which has flight computing apps on it.  There are places for nostalgia, but I don't think it should drive requirements in a curriculum.

Edited September 4, 2017 by EricJ

[RLCarter]

@N201MKTurbo grab a safety pilot and let them fly from the right while you getting comfortable with the new stuff. I've done this for several guys that have had major upgrades

[jaylw314]

I think the E6B is an important learning tool in training.  It's not a good way to DO the calculations, but it's useful to LEARN the calculations visually.  If I can still see in my head, "oh, gee, if I want to calculate my true airspeed, I need to line up the pressure altitude with the temperature in the little window first," I've learned what the important factors are in determining true airspeed.  Same goes for the crosswind calculations--if you happen to not have a bunch of sine and cosine tables in your head, you can start getting a sense of how big a crosswind correction you need and why.

It's a TERRIBLE way of doing calculations, though, so I don't think it's much use beyond learning.  At best, I have a 50:50 chance of screwing up my calculations by figuring out if I need to look at the inner or outer wheel each time.  Given time, I can figure it out, but that's not what you need when you are under pressure or multitasking.

[gsxrpilot]

As an answer to the suggestion that since electronics quit, batteries die, etc. so it's useful to have that E6B in the flight bag just incase...  

The knowledge of how to use the E6B correctly and accurately is even more perishable than modern electronics with all the redundancy we typically have, iPad, iPhone, MFD, GPS, etc.

I was required to learn to use the E6B during my primary flight training. And so I learned it well. I have three different watches that have E6B's built into the bezels. I would practice using them on long commercial flights sitting back in economy class. I was pretty good at it. 

I flew from KCCR to KHYI last night in the 252, landing well after mid-night. If ALL of my cockpit electronics had crapped out last night, I would not have taken the time to relearn the E6B, rather I'd have found a place to land. 

When I'm a CFI, I don't expect I'll teach the E6B at all.

[carusoam]

Thanks Paul,

I forgot, I have an E6B faced watch too...  

It was too difficult to remember how to set the time and date never mind do a calculation...

Every six months I needed to look up what buttonology was required to fall back or spring forwards.

Then I got even older...

Best regards,

-a-

[RLCarter]

Electronic gizmos are faster and easier to learn than an E6B, but does a primary student really learn from just plugging in numbers or airport codes? Plotting a x-country on paper you get to see the mechanics of the flight and all the forces that effects it. I still have my E6B from 1977 and have yet had to charge/replace a battery, update the firmware or had it re-boot for what ever reason. I will say when do go to use it there is a re-learning curve that plays into the equation. Most of us have multiple devices (tablets & phones) that we take for granted for our flight planning and for the most part they work great, but there is nothing wrong with knowing how to do something even if it is old school. 

[kortopates]

I am of the opinion that the slide rule E6b can stay in the Smithsonian. It has no practical real world value anymore than slide rules do - its is a circular slide rule after all.

What's really ironic in my opinion if there is problem in what is being taught, lack of basic like this is not the problem, pilots need to be able to use all their available equipment and despite the popularity of GPS in the cockpit, there are lots of pilots out there that barely know how to use theirs. To me that's where the emphasis should be.

New VFR students certainly need to know how to flight plan a cross country flight manually. By manually, I don't mean using a sectional and a slide rule E6B. An electronic e6b is fine. Its not about punching in numbers anymore than it is about turn wheels. Its all about looking up performance data in your POH for all the phases of flight and adding up time fuel required and to a lesser extent accounting for winds manually. Its primarily about being able to apply the POH performance data for the aircraft they fly to figuring time and fuel. But these days students more commonly use Skyvector.com to map out their flight plan on the PC rather than sectionals and then get magnetic headings and nm between waypoints. From their they'll need to do at least the rest of the fuel and time calculations manually with a digital E6b utility or calculator. They are still taking these into the written exams but even there, with the recent changes in the ACS the need for them is dwindling since they are getting away from problems that need interpolation.  

Secondly, any new VFR pilot needs to be able to divert and estimate time required and fuel required in the air. You didn't need an E6B to get in the ball bark back in the day, but you could sure do a better job turning the wheels on the e6B. But now, our panel GPS is going to solve this problem even better. And if all the electrons have really quit flowing, if we covered this in the flight planning using POH data, they should be able to ball park in the air as well.

To put this all another way, let's focus on the skills they need to learn, not the technology they use.  Flight planning and diversion requirements are skills previously done with e6b. The real skill of flight planning is learned pre-flight, they really need to learn this without a fully automated solution, but in the cockpit they should learn how to leverage all their available resources - that's being a better resourceful pilot.  

[M016576]

7 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Yikes!  You got run over by an aircraft carrier?!! I bet that's quite a story.

Edited September 4, 2017 by M016576
Double post

[M016576]

7 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Yikes!  You got run over by an aircraft carrier?!! I bet that's quite a story.

It is a good story... The article for approach magazine that I wrote about the experience is featured in a book called "Punching Out."  For those that know my name- if you google it, you'll get some of the story.  For those that dont, a quick search about the following will get you most of the way there-  The excitement began with a wire parting as I landed my F/A-18F aboard the USS Kitty Hawk.

[donkaye]

The 17th of this month marks 50 years to the day I took my first flying lesson.  Have things changed since that time!   One radio and a VOR in that Cessna 150.  It used to take 4 hours to plan a 30 mile cross country.  (Now it takes 10 minutes to plan a cross country across the whole US assuming no weather enroute).  For the instrument rating two radios and 2 VORs; no DME.  Yes, an ADF, too.  

But its been the last 15 years where technology "steamed" ahead.  As a former EE, I really like purposeful button pushing.  To do it properly requires reading and understanding a lot of manuals.  I spent several months reviewing the manuals for the G500, GTN 750, GTN 650, ESI 500, GMA 35, MVP 50, WX 500, GTX 335, GTS 800, GDL 88, GDL 69a, FS 210, FS 510, Aera 796, Garmin Pilot.  And, of course, manuals of  the things I kept before the update, the KFC 150 and Miniflow L.  For decision making on the upgrade, I read and studied the manuals for the Aspen and JPI 930.  Now do I really want to review and try to remember how to operate the E6B or some of the earlier GPSs?   It's enough trying to remember how all the new equipment works let alone remembering how the useless old tools work.

Worried about total electrical failure; GPS failure; PFD Display failure?   To handle that Mooney was kind enough to provide: dual batteries and dual alternators.  Garmin kind enough to provide dual GPs.  L-3 kind enough to provide the backup PFD with navigation.  Garmin Pilot when everything else fails.  Looks like 8 levels of redundancy, therefore, another reason to forego learning earlier technology.

 

 

 

 

[Bob_Belville]

41 minutes ago, donkaye said:

The 17th of this month marks 50 years to the day I took my first flying lesson.

I'm curious as to how many Wright Brothers Master Pilots are on MS. For me June 2019 will be 50 years since first solo. (The clock starts on first solo for the recognition.)

https://www.faasafety.gov/content/masterpilot/RecipientList.aspx

[Jerry 5TJ]

....I remember flying IMC in my M20E with one vacuum pump driving a single AI gyro...and I don't care to relive my youthful adventures of that sort. 

Do you really think it is harder to fly IMC with G500/GTN750/iPad  than with a shaky six-pack and some paper charts?  Not me.  

Like Don, I first took lessons in a 150 with a single Omni nearly 50 years ago. ($12 wet + $5 for the instructor) and those are fond memories.   Glad to have them.  Don't care to fly behind that rustic panel again though. 

[gsxrpilot]

I can't say it better than @donkaye. But as I was flying my 252 home last night, I was thinking of how the modern electronics in my upgraded panel have increased the dispatch reliability of my little airplane.  

I started my Sunday by flying out of 88NV (BurningMan) with very low visibility and with most planes grounded. I was able to use the synthetic vision on my IFD540 and ForeFlight, to easily launch and climb above the dust and smoke into clear air and depart. I made a quick stop at KLOL for fuel and then to KCCR to drop off my passengers. A quick refuel and IFR flight plan filed, I was off towards home. The combination of the IFD540, the Aspen, and KFC150 made the several routing changes from ATC, very simple. Throw in a few more deviations for weather, delivered to the IFD540 via the SkyTrax100 and to the iPad via a Stratus and ForeFlight... and through it all, the JPI EDM-900 kept a running estimate of fuel required against fuel available. The first leg was KCCR to KSJN. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N252AD/history/20170903/2010Z/KCCR/KSJN and this was followed by KSJN to KHYI landing after mid-night. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N252AD/history/20170904/0130Z/KSJN/KHYI On the last leg it was again weather making the difference. Not thunderstorms or low visibility, but winds aloft. But the EDM-900 along with my CiES fuel senders, kept a running tally while the Aspen and IFD540 let me know if I was winning or losing the battle with the wind. 

Since this is just a hobby and not a military mission or some other vital reason for flight, if all I had was paper/pencil/E6B/wristwatch, I would have made at least one, maybe two more fuel stops and likely would have split the trip into two days while I watched for a way through the thunderstorms along the route. It would be different if I was flying a J-3 Cub, but with a turbo Mooney, I like having all the gadgets and the increased dispatch reliability that goes with them.

[N201MKTurbo]

I need to call Avidyne I don't think it is working right. 

The manual leaves a lot to the imigination. There is only three lines about procedure turns and holding patterns. I had to fly 4 laps around the holding pattern waiting for my turn at the ILS. 

The first time around I was a little unsure how it wanted me to enter the hold. All the lines and dashes are confusing and I can't find any explaination in the pilots guide. With the Garmin it would put up a little messsage telling you what kind of hold entry and what heading to turn to. The Avidyne pilots guide said it would do something like that, but didn't give any examples, so I don't know where to look. Is it only on certain pages? Do you have to be on the map page, the FMS page? The SVS page? I don't know. 

Anyway, after I did the first lap it seemed to figure out that I was holding and the map showed the airplane flying around the racetrack. The indicator seemed to be pointing at the holding fix. The book said the mode indicator would show GPS > VLOC but it didn't until I got down to the FAF altitude. That was a little unnerving. It magically switched to VLOC as I flew over the FAF. This is where it got weird the CDI showed the correct localizer deviations. It matched the KX155 perfectly except the course pointer was pointing at the FAF so I had to fly it like a back course. The GS  indications were correct.

One other thing that was really annoying was the traffic warning. It wouldn't shut up! I was flying in the stack with planes 500 ft above and 500 ft below. No amount of acknowledging the traffic would make her shut up. If anything is going cause a collision that will! I spent way more time looking down at the clear button then looking out the window, which is what I need to be doing.

I will get it figured out some day and for the 25K I spent for it all I will learn to love it!

[Bravoman]

No pilot should get through training without a rudimentary understanding of the E6b and how to navigate by good old fashion pilotage.  That's just my opinion. It's like a right of passage. When my son got his ticket I insisted he learn to navigate without the magenta line. I think he's better off for it and so does he. There are some things that are just a matter of tradition no matter what the state of technology may be.

[Bennett]

Being ancient, I have used DECCA, LORAN A, LORAN C, Omega, and a Tamaya sextant for offshore cruising. I've flown ADF approaches, in in marine sailing, bottom contours, visual ranges, and radar. Now GPS makes it almost too easy. My Mooney has two GTNs, a 796, and an iPad mini 4 running ForeFlight. But I glad I know the old systems. If GPS goes down, I can still find a way to navigate. I even learned lifeboat navigation with a piece of folded paper and any weight and a piece of string. And everything else you need can be worked out from a iPhone, without an internet connection. And if all else fails, derive the formulas from trig. Frankly I doubt if any of my kids or grandkids could do this although they all hold advanced degrees.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

 

 

[steingar]

Pilotage is a damn good thing to be taught, because it's the one thing you can do in any aircraft. But if someone is using an E6B in flight sans a safety pilot I don't wish to fly with or anywhere near them.

Sextants are cool and probably still useful in a pinch. Difference is a boat never fell out of the sky because the guy driving it was fooling with his sextant.

[gsxrpilot]

Agreed, I don't think anyone is arguing against pilotage. But the E6B is way past it's use by date. I don't see any reason to learn to use it other than pure nostalgia.

[N201MKTurbo]

Just now, steingar said:

Pilotage is a damn good thing to be taught, because it's the one thing you can do in any aircraft. But if someone is using an E6B in flight sans a safety pilot I don't wish to fly with or anywhere near them.

Sextants are cool and probably still useful in a pinch. Difference is a boat never fell out of the sky because the guy driving it was fooling with his sextant.

You can get time speed and distance with an E6B in about 2 seconds. What's the problem?

[M016576]

10 minutes ago, Bennett said:

Being ancient, I have used DECCA, LORAN A, LORAN C, Omega, and a Tamara sextant for offshore cruising. I've flown ADF approaches, in in marine sailing, bottom contours, visual ranges, and radar. Now GPS makes it almost too easy. My Mooney has two GTNs, a 796, and an iPad mini 4 running ForeFlight. But I glad I know the old systems. If GPS goes down, I can still find a way to navigate. I even learned lifeboat navigation with a piece of folded paper and any weight and a piece of string. And everything else you need an be worked out from a iPhone, without an internet connection. And if all else fails, derive the formulas from trig. Frankly I doubt if any of my kids or grandkids could do this although they all hold advanced degrees.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

When the antenna on my 430W failed a few years back, it's transmitter let out interference that knocked out all the GPS receivers in my plane (iPhone, aera 550).  Of course it was IMC, and winter, and my primary was well below minimums (I leveled off at the MDA into KSUN and was still 500' above the fog layer!).  Long story short, I navigated to my alternate and shot an arcing ILS off of a VOR / DME (KNS-80) because their is no approach radar at TWF, this no "vectors to final." Or at least there wasn't that day.  I didn't need an E-6B to do any of that- just training on how to use the systems in my aircraft. And that's the key: the understanding of aviation.  Not necessarily the symbolic the tool behind it.

[steingar]

7 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You can get time speed and distance with an E6B in about 2 seconds. What's the problem?

You can run into me in the two seconds your head is down while  you're  playing with your antiquated toy.  I can get those values in my head about as quickly. It's called arithmetic. 

[M016576]

5 hours ago, M016576 said:

It is a good story... The article for approach magazine that I wrote about the experience is featured in a book called "Punching Out."  For those that know my name- if you google it, you'll get some of the story.  For those that dont, a quick search about the following will get you most of the way there-  The excitement began with a wire parting as I landed my F/A-18F aboard the USS Kitty Hawk.

If anyone is interested in the platform camera video of my ejection, just pm me: I'll e-mail it to you, or maybe I'll just post it on youtube.