Transition Training: 172 to M20C

[Steelstring]

First time caller, but I've been lurking for a bit.  It looks like I will be entering a partnership on a 1963 M20C. If all goes well on the annual next week, I'm in.  Super excited about it and I have learned quite a bit from this forum already.

I am a 100 hour pilot with all of my time in Cessnas, primarily the 172.  I'm only a few hours from my instrument checkride and I've been flying quite a bit in the last year.  The person from whom I'm purchasing the share is a CFI and we are planning extensive transition training for me.  I've been reading the recent threads on landings with great interest.  What are the watch outs for me and what should we emphasize in the training?  

Thanks in advance for the thoughts!

 

 

[BRBENNETT]

Plan ahead, takes time for Mooneys to slow down.  Plan to be at pattern altitude 5 miles out.   If you nail your approach speeds, landing is easy.  If not, you will float.  Unless you have a real long runway to bleed the speed, GO AROUND!

[donkaye]

2 hours ago, Steelstring said:

First time caller, but I've been lurking for a bit.  It looks like I will be entering a partnership on a 1963 M20C. If all goes well on the annual next week, I'm in.  Super excited about it and I have learned quite a bit from this forum already.

I am a 100 hour pilot with all of my time in Cessnas, primarily the 172.  I'm only a few hours from my instrument checkride and I've been flying quite a bit in the last year.  The person from whom I'm purchasing the share is a CFI and we are planning extensive transition training for me.  I've been reading the recent threads on landings with great interest.  What are the watch outs for me and what should we emphasize in the training?  

Thanks in advance for the thoughts!

1. Understand the Pitch/Power relationship for flying any airplane perfectly.  (In my notes with each video).

2. Know the elements of the perfect landing.  AIRSPEED CONTROL  and just as important, SLOPE MANAGEMENT.

3. Get my Video to put the above all together.

http://www.donkaye.com/donkaye.com/Perfect_Your_Landings.html

The C Model is a particularly easy airplane to land. 

[gsxrpilot]

30 minutes ago, donkaye said:

The C Model is a particularly easy airplane to land. 

That was my experience... after watching @donkaye's video.

[Yetti]

Mooneys are precision machines.  All the inputs are less than a 172.  .  Sit on the runway before takeoff and learn the sight picture.  Then repeat that.  full flaps tends to push air down on the runway for only 3 knots less stall speed increase. Check that the gear is down many times before needing it.  Be airline smooth.

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, SS...

There are a few things that are going to be different...

1) Important to me, was the Go around procedure.  Experience at least one with your CFI.  For some, it is a handful and it comes as a surprise when you are already busy with other things... Keep flying the plane...

2) Don Kaye is a CFII in the Mooney community.  +1 on his Mooney landing video and details.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Guest]

Going from fixed gear to retractable gear, the most important item is to make sure the gear is down and locked before landing.  The gear up landing club is open to all pilots

Clarence

[Boilermonkey]

#1 Sight Picture is significantly different.  Low wing, closer to the ground, more reclined seat position, etc.

#2 Energy management.  The plane is harder to slow down...dumping the flaps won't slow you down nearly as much as the 172.  And all that has been said here before.

#3 While your floating (if it happens) be patient.  We have a 5000 foot runway, while you may use up too much of the runway for a touch and go, that's fine.  Just let her settle, be careful not to balloon or bounce!

#4 Porpoise.  You may flare too high (or balloon) causing a big bounce and cause a porpoise.  If you do, GO AROUND...Smoothly add throttle (otherwise she'll cough), don't climb yet, just level her out just over the ground, get some speed, begin your climb, put the gear up, and collect your self. 

#5 Control inputs are smaller than a 172.

#6 As she settles release most of your crosswind input.  If you don't the nose wheel will touch down at an angle and you'll veer off towards the edge of the runway.   If that happens, release the correction and then gently correct, if you over correct you'll have a bad day.

#7 Retrac.  Normal stuff about retrac, but the manual gear on the Mooney is intended to be raised around 80mph.  So, don't dilly dally about putting them up as it takes more force at higher speeds.  When you move the bar, move it firmly and smoothly in one motion from the verticle to the floor and push the sleeve back to lock.  If you can slide your thumbnail in the floor block, or the block when it is "down and locked" it is NOT locked.  Push the sleeve a bit and you should not be able to put your thumbnail in-between the sleeve and the block.

#8 Cloud Ahoy is a humbling tool.  I recommend Cloud Ahoy.   Look it up, you can export the GPS track logs from the Stratus/Foreflight into it and look at your airspeeds, track, etc.   It's very helpful in finding out why something happened or seeing how consistent you are.

#9 Your co-owners love pilot stories, beer, and wine...but always after flying.

 

That's all that comes to mind, I only transitioned 50 hrs (6 months) ago from C172/182s.  It took about 10hrs to get it nailed.

 

 

[rbridges]

nothing new, just reiterating others.  Watch your numbers over final.  Do not try to force the plane onto the runway; let it run out of energy on it's own.  You should hear the stall horn when you land.  Get used to flying FASTER in cruise!

[KLRDMD]

When in the landing flare, the yoke is either neutral or back - never forward of neutral.

[Raptor05121]

Just because it hasn't been said, read the POH! We have many copies in the downloads section of this website

[Steelstring]

Thanks for all of the great input!  I have a little studying to do (POH) then get out and fly!  I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[MBDiagMan]

OP,  I went through the same process early this year, and had much the same apprehension about it.  Most people on this forum were very encouraging.  Only a few tried to make it sound as if I was stepping from a Cessna 140 into the space shuttle.  The transition went very well and although there were a few mild hick ups that I got past, it turned out to be what one of my instructors told me, and that was that I was getting an airplane that was easier to fly.

Go for it!  Pay attention to your instructor and have fun.  The Mooney is a piece of cake.  Just learn its idiosynchrocies and don't forget to put down the gear.  It is NOT rocket science.

BTW, I am also in a '63 model C.

[PaulM]

Also,

  Have the instructor do a cross country with you, so you can see what cruise speeds and descent planning feel like.
 

When I originally transitioned to a J model, the instructor had us fly out to the practice area for stalls, air work etc, and then all of the rest of the training was pattern work, all under 100kts.  The first time I took it out for a x-country it just kept going faster (trim down), and faster (trim down)  until we were 50kts quicker than a 172.. That was interesting the first time.     The bravo transition was Ho-hum in comparison.. oh another 20kts.. ok. 

[Raptor05121]

6 minutes ago, PaulM said:

The first time I took it out for a x-country it just kept going faster (trim down), and faster (trim down)  until we were 50kts quicker than a 172..

1

I know exactly what you mean. We did a lot of local stuff and I told him "before you sign me off, I'd like to do a cross country and some hood stuff". And what you said was the first thing I exclaimed. Very trim happy and kept speeding up more and more.

#mooneyzoom

[Hank]

I made the transition 172-->M20C at 62 hours. Read the Owners Manual, pay attention to.yhe Performance Tables, and slow to 90 mph and drop Takeoff flaps 3-5 nm from the airport and you will do fine.

DO NOT FLY FASTER THAN 1.3 Vso ON FINAL.

NEVER PUSH THE YOKE WHEN LANDING. 

Yiu should do fine. Several times flying into the wind, my wife has commented that she was glad we weren't in a Cessna. 

Two things you will appreciate immediately--the takeoff climb, and the cruise speed. My insurance required 15 hours dual, and it became a game of "where arr we going to fly today" with my instructor.

Be sure to make some trips further than the practice area, you need to learn about using the red knob, which I never used in the Cessna. In my Mooney, i use it on every flight that leaves the pattern. 

And remember to have fun!

[midlifeflyer]

First transitions are the most difficult. If you think back to learning how to drive, you might recall the first time you drove something - anything - different. Dials, switches all in different places. And it even drove different. Very very small differences in the car made a big difference to you. Even just a few months or a few cars later, and you hop into a Hertz rental model you never saw before and take off down the road.

It's very much the same with transitioning into airplanes. For most of us, it never becomes quite as easy as cars but the more different types you fly, the easier transitions get. You start recognizing all the similarities so you can concentrate on the relatively few differences. But those first few? - the differences are exaggerated. 

You are transitioning to an M2OC.  That's a fairly large difference, less because it's a Mooney than because it has different systems (complex retract) and it is faster than a 172.  You would be facing similar issues even if this transition were to a 172RG. Seen it more than once as an instructor. "Similar" but not exactly the same since a 172RG at least looks like a 172; a Mooney is quite different. 

So, don't get frustrated it it doesn't come as fast as you want it to. With a good instructor, you'll do fine.

[KLRDMD]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

My insurance required 15 hours dual, and it became a game of "where arr we going to fly today" with my instructor.

I've found that for the most part, the insurance underwriters have a good handle on transition training requirements. I've transitioned three pilots into M20Ks this year. All knew that three criteria must be met before I'll sign them off.

1. We must meet the insurance minimums.

2. The transitioning pilot must feel comfortable.

3. I must be comfortable signing them off.

The first one required 15 hours and at about 13.5 hours I was ready to sign him off. The second only required a CFI signoff. I was comfortable with him after the first hour but we flew 2.5 hours before he was comfortable. The third required 5 hours and sure enough, right at 5 hours I was comfortable enough to sign him off.

[Steelstring]

Thanks for the further thoughts everyone!  The insurance requires 5 hours dual and 5 hours solo before carrying passengers.  I imagine I will feel fairly comfortable by then.  Further, I will be finishing up my instrument training in the Mooney.  So I should get the cross country and hood time with an instructor that many of you mentioned.  I think that will be important.  

I flew it for 0.7 the other day and did some basic air work with the instructor to get a feel for it. It was immediately clear it wasn't a 172!  It's quick!  Flight control feel is TOTALLY different as well, as some of you have mentioned.  I did two landings and thought it was actually easier to land than the 172 (two landings clearly qualifies me to make that statement).  It is a nice flying machine though...I think I'm going to like this!

Thanks for all of the thoughts and advice. Much appreciated.

[steingar]

Biggest difference is Mooneys don't go down and slow down at the same time like Skyhawks.  Like the guys said, you really have to think about your descents and of course land by the numbers.

The good news is once the gear is down and the flaps are out the Mooney flies somewhat like a Skyhawk.  Similar speeds and all.  of course, the Mooney wing sits a lot lower, so excess speed will result in lots and lots of float.  Mooneys can bite...

[carolinaflying]

Just transitioned this summer with similar experience to you.

Gear up on takeoff gives you the Mooney wave until you get the Johnson bar movement in muscle memory.

The variable speed prop took me a little to get used to, but feels second nature after several hours.

I was flaring too high according to my instructor and trying to land with too much of a nose up attitude which he said is common with Cessna pilots. We practiced a lot of cross wind landings as I liked to crab into the wind on approach and land somewhat askew in the Cessna. With a retract, too much side load could collapse the gear so we practiced the proper cross wind landing technique.

He liked the fact this was my first retract experience as I was quite paranoid about gear down and locked. GUMPS multiple times on final.

It wasn't as hard to slow down as I imagined,  gear down and full flaps felt similar to me as the Cessna. Have fun!

[gitmo234]

Did you find the flare to be almost nothing? I know you said its very different for us rehabilitated Cessna drivers, but im finding it feels like NO flare. The sight picture to me feel almost nose-down, but its not. 

What I was most amazed by was how "solid" the mooney felt in the air, especially with the wing leveler.  In my cessna (as old and out of shape as it was) there was no trimming for straight and level and relaxing just a bit. It made a 2+ hour flight exhausting. I seem to get a lot more bang for my buck now because if I need to I could actually take my hands off the controls for a few seconds and not have to worry. 

 

 

[Hank]

45 minutes ago, gitmo234 said:

Did you find the flare to be almost nothing? I know you said its very different for us rehabilitated Cessna drivers, but im finding it feels like NO flare. The sight picture to me feel almost nose-down, but its not. 

What I was most amazed by was how "solid" the mooney felt in the air, especially with the wing leveler.  In my cessna (as old and out of shape as it was) there was no trimming for straight and level and relaxing just a bit. It made a 2+ hour flight exhausting. I seem to get a lot more bang for my buck now because if I need to I could actually take my hands off the controls for a few seconds and not have to worry. 

 

 

Ain't it great?

With my Brittain AccuFlite following the heading bug, I can level off, accelerate, set power, trim level, then actually sit back, cross my arms and watch the world go by, occasionally checking the panel and track on the GPS. Sometimes it feels like cheating, but my wife doesn't have to make me correct attitude or course while looking at charts / plates or messing with the radio.

[RobertGary1]

On 8/13/2017 at 11:05 AM, M20Doc said:

Going from fixed gear to retractable gear, the most important item is to make sure the gear is down and locked before landing.  The gear up landing club is open to all pilots

Clarence

Its why we fly T206's in CAP. You'd have gear ups daily in CAP if we were flying retracts (world's largest fleet of piston singles)!

-Robert

[AndyFromCB]

Number one difference I found when I transitioned the other way around, from a M20M to a Cessna 206, is ground effect is considerably more pronounced in the Mooney than the Cessna so you float a while longer in flare if you flare at the same height as Cessna. Now, if you flare a Cessna at the same height I used to flare my Mooney, I'd just drop straight in and bang the nose gear. At least it seems that way. I'll let experts chime in, I think Don knows what he is talking about 99% of the time ;-)