GTN650 / DME install advice

[Browncbr1]

OK, I'm about 2 weeks from pulling the trigger on a panel makeover.  I need advice about what to do with my KN-64 stand alone DME.   I understand that certified IFR GPS can be used in lieu of a stand-alone DME for DME required approaches.   Originally, I thought about keeping the KN-64, but I'm tight on panel space.  I had always thought it would be better to keep it if a RAIM outage or other problem were to happen mid-flight... In that case, I would need backup DME to make the VOR approach to a field I visit regularly... 

Can anyone weigh in on if I should pull the DME and sell it or keep it?   

I'm planning to have dual G5s put in with the GTN, and interfaced with my Aera510.

[Marauder]

1 minute ago, Browncbr1 said:

OK, I'm about 2 weeks from pulling the trigger on a panel makeover.  I need advice about what to do with my KN-64 stand alone DME.   I understand that certified IFR GPS can be used in lieu of a stand-alone DME for DME required approaches.   Originally, I thought about keeping the KN-64, but I'm tight on panel space.  I had always thought it would be better to keep it if a RAIM outage or other problem were to happen mid-flight... In that case, I would need backup DME to make the VOR approach to a field I visit regularly... 

Can anyone weigh in on if I should pull the DME and sell it or keep it?   

I'm planning to have dual G5s put in with the GTN, and interfaced with my Aera510.

Sell it. I pulled mine and sold it for $600. They still have value but I don't miss the DME.

[N6758N]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

OK, I'm about 2 weeks from pulling the trigger on a panel makeover.  I need advice about what to do with my KN-64 stand alone DME.   I understand that certified IFR GPS can be used in lieu of a stand-alone DME for DME required approaches.   Originally, I thought about keeping the KN-64, but I'm tight on panel space.  I had always thought it would be better to keep it if a RAIM outage or other problem were to happen mid-flight... In that case, I would need backup DME to make the VOR approach to a field I visit regularly... 

Can anyone weigh in on if I should pull the DME and sell it or keep it?   

I'm planning to have dual G5s put in with the GTN, and interfaced with my Aera510.

I'd recommend pulling it out Craig, especially since you're tight on panel space. The likely hood of losing RAIM is pretty low, and in that case you could always use the Aera as a backup (although not legal for approaches)

[gsengle]

If you have space, keep it, if you don't, pull it. It's a good backup to your gps to have vor/ils/dme. But not that big a deal either way. I've kept mine.


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[Browncbr1]

I suppose in a pinch, I could always ask ATC for DME call outs as well... 

[StevenL757]

20 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

OK, I'm about 2 weeks from pulling the trigger on a panel makeover.  I need advice about what to do with my KN-64 stand alone DME.   I understand that certified IFR GPS can be used in lieu of a stand-alone DME for DME required approaches.   Originally, I thought about keeping the KN-64, but I'm tight on panel space.  I had always thought it would be better to keep it if a RAIM outage or other problem were to happen mid-flight... In that case, I would need backup DME to make the VOR approach to a field I visit regularly... 

Can anyone weigh in on if I should pull the DME and sell it or keep it?   

I'm planning to have dual G5s put in with the GTN, and interfaced with my Aera510.

Agree with Chris - sell the thing and clean up your panel space.  I can count on one hand the number of times over the last 10+ years I've lost RAIM in multiple different aircraft flying multiple approaches all over the US.  Also support Terry in wondering why you would do a panel makeover, yet choose to interface any new (or existing) equipment to a non-IFR certified handheld piece of hardware like the Aera?

[Browncbr1]

4 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

Agree with Chris - sell the thing and clean up your panel space.  I can count on one hand the number of times over the last 10+ years I've lost RAIM in multiple different aircraft all over the US.  Also support Terry in wondering why you would do a panel makeover, yet choose to interface any new (or existing) equipment to a non-IFR certified handheld piece of hardware like the Aera?

I was thinking to interface the aera510 for the same reason folks interface a 796...  I like the aera for its small foot print and same interface logic as the GTN.  As I understand it, you can setup flight plan, activate approaches, etc on one or the other and it will apply changes to both units.  In the event I lose the 650 or have complete electrical failure,  I would still have the 510 (internal battery backup) without losing any data.

[Marauder]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

I was thinking to interface the aera510 for the same reason folks interface a 796...  As I understand it, you can setup flight plan, activate approaches, etc on one or the other and it will apply changes to both units.  In the event I lose the 650 or have complete electrical failure,  I would still have the 510 (internal battery backup) without losing any data.

The argument you will get on using the Aera 510 or 796 (aside of the legality) is that the distance is not slant range distance that the DME would provide. May not be a big difference, but it is different and the charts are based on it.

[StevenL757]

Absolutely.  My thoughts exactly.

[Browncbr1]

4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

The argument you will get on using the Aera 510 or 796 (aside of the legality) is that the distance is not slant range distance that the DME would provide. May not be a big difference, but it is different and the charts are based on it.

Yea, I understood this as well, and it follows thatt the GTN value would be the only legal source for DME..  In the event I would lose the GTN, I would still need to ask ATC for DME calls on an approach, even though the Aera would still be operational.  Otherwise, I'm asking for a contact approach or ASR

[gsengle]

Yea, I understood this as well, and it follows thatt the GTN value would be the only legal source for DME..  In the event I would lose the GTN, I would still need to ask ATC for DME calls on an approach, even though the Aera would still be operational.  Otherwise, I'm asking for a contact approach or ASR

You can't count on approach radar on many approaches....


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[Andy95W]

Sell it while you can still get decent money for it.

[carusoam]

MS Logic...

1) GPS has replaced the DME. Even though the distances charted are slant range...

2) two GPSi (plural) negates the need for having a third distance measuring device...

3) Short on space, this is one of those easy to replace devices like an ADF.

4) its antenna may be used for ADSB in/out. Check if you will be keeping it or plugging the hole.

5) See Byron's below...  a GTN screen can run out of data spots, having the DME is a way to add a constant display of some lesser used data....

6) pretty color screens are nice. 

OK, I made the last one up...

Best regards,

-a-

[jetdriven]

I just installed a GTN-750 and Kept the DME. However, you don't need to access it in flight, put the whole unit on the rear avionics rack.  

The GTN navigators only show along track miles to the airport in the flight plan, and distance to active waypoint on the screen. . So when in the terminal area you don't know how far away the airport is. On Approach it's just as Bad, the distance is the next active waypoint.  For an ILS-DME you won't have DME and when tuned to radio nav you won't show DME.  

Yes there is a data field called "distance to tuned navaid" that shows a value, but you are tying up one of the precious 4 or 8 data fields available on the GTN. After you take out distance to next waypoint, Bearing, track, and ground speed, you may not have any fields to put it on. And when you do, it's useless data 95% of the  time. 

However, a remote mounted, remote tuned DME works great. The GTN channels it and when you tune a navaid, it's there. 

This airplane has DME. 

Edited August 4, 2017 by jetdriven

[Bob_Belville]

Sell it. You'll never miss it. The $600(?) will almost buy a CYA100 AOA. Or 150 gallons of avgas. Or 9 months Garmin subscription for that new GTN.

[Browncbr1]

34 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

I just installed a GTN-750 and Kept the DME. However, you don't need to access it in flight, put the whole unit on the rear avionics rack.  

The GTN navigators only show along track miles to the airport in the flight plan, and distance to active waypoint on the screen. . So when in the terminal area you don't know how far away the airport is. On Approach it's just as Bad, the distance is the next active waypoint.  For an ILS-DME you won't have DME and when tuned to radio nav you won't show DME.  

Yes there is a data field called "distance to tuned navaid" that shows a value, but you are tying up one of the precious 4 or 8 data fields available on the GTN. After you take out distance to next waypoint, Bearing, track, and ground speed, you may not have any fields to put it on. And when you do, it's useless data 95% of the  time. 

However, a remote mounted, remote tuned DME works great. The GTN channels it and when you tune a navaid, it's there. 

This airplane has DME. 

good point about the precious data fields on screen.  Having the aera510 would give me 4 additional fields over the GTN650.  8 total?  

[carusoam]

+1 for programming the flight plan once, and sharing it amongst the various devices on board.

Specially when ATC gives you a change of plans...

Best regards,

-a- 

[N201MKTurbo]

I'm putting an Avidyne 550 in and keeping the KX155 and the KN 62. 

I like my DME and the 550 is a single point failure. If the 550 goes out I will still have as much navigation as I ever had until now.

 

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

I just installed a GTN-750 and Kept the DME. However, you don't need to access it in flight, put the whole unit on the rear avionics rack.  

The GTN navigators only show along track miles to the airport in the flight plan, and distance to active waypoint on the screen. . So when in the terminal area you don't know how far away the airport is. On Approach it's just as Bad, the distance is the next active waypoint.  For an ILS-DME you won't have DME and when tuned to radio nav you won't show DME.  

Yes there is a data field called "distance to tuned navaid" that shows a value, but you are tying up one of the precious 4 or 8 data fields available on the GTN. After you take out distance to next waypoint, Bearing, track, and ground speed, you may not have any fields to put it on. And when you do, it's useless data 95% of the  time. 

However, a remote mounted, remote tuned DME works great. The GTN channels it and when you tune a navaid, it's there. 

This airplane has DME. 

I think remote DME is only available on the GTN750?  

[ArtVandelay]

I just installed a GTN-750 and Kept the DME. However, you don't need to access it in flight, put the whole unit on the rear avionics rack.  
The GTN navigators only show along track miles to the airport in the flight plan, and distance to active waypoint on the screen. . So when in the terminal area you don't know how far away the airport is. On Approach it's just as Bad, the distance is the next active waypoint.  For an ILS-DME you won't have DME and when tuned to radio nav you won't show DME.  
Yes there is a data field called "distance to tuned navaid" that shows a value, but you are tying up one of the precious 4 or 8 data fields available on the GTN. After you take out distance to next waypoint, Bearing, track, and ground speed, you may not have any fields to put it on. And when you do, it's useless data 95% of the  time. 

Or with Garmin Pilot hit direct-to on the waypoint you are interested in and it gives you the distance, then you can cancel.
Or execute the direct to and leave the panel as is, giving you real time stats. You should add an EFB to that plane.
And if you sell the DME, it will pay for the iPad. As a bonus you can use it read MS.

[Browncbr1]

18 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Or with Garmin Pilot hit direct-to on the waypoint you are interested in and it gives you the distance, then you can cancel.
Or execute the direct to and leave the panel as is, giving you real time stats. You should add an EFB to that plane.
And if you sell the DME, it will pay for the iPad. As a bonus you can use it read MS.

I currently have an ipad mini on the yoke running fltplan go...   I think determining DME in a pinch is no problem with available equipment, but wouldn't be legal...

What is the deal with garmin pilot if you have a GTN?  Do you get the app with charts and plates for the ipad included with the $300 annual GTN nav data subscription?    Or is GP charged separately?  I am happy with fltplan go, but if I can use GP freely and integrate with the GTN, that could be cool, but i think you have to buy the $1k wireless FS box as well?  boooo

[Bob_Belville]

39 minutes ago, Browncbr1 said:

I currently have an ipad mini on the yoke running fltplan go...   I think determining DME in a pinch is no problem with available equipment, but wouldn't be legal...

What is the deal with garmin pilot if you have a GTN?  Do you get the app with charts and plates for the ipad included with the $300 annual GTN nav data subscription?    Or is GP charged separately?  I am happy with fltplan go, but if I can use GP freely and integrate with the GTN, that could be cool, but i think you have to buy the $1k wireless FS box as well?  boooo

Go to fly.garmin and check out their OnePak. A subscription for the GTN includes a portable, like my 696 and Garmin Pilot for up to 2 Android or IOS devices. You do have to pay for the VFR pilot but the IFR upgrade is included with the GTN subscription. I use the  United States Standard + FliteCharts OnePak so I get charts, etc on 4 devices for $799. Not cheap but about half what is was until they changed it a year ago.

[kortopates]

Slant range versus GPS distance is never an issue with our approach certified GPS. We virtually never need to cross reference a distance field anymore. Which is another reason why you don't need DME. Almost always there is a GPS waypoint for what we would otherwise be using DME to identify. And even on older ILS/LOC approaches that occasionally don't have a corresponding GPS waypoint, Jeppsen still codes a DME fix into the approach DB using their notation and thus when you load the approach on your GPS you'll see lettered DME fixes in the approach that correspond to the charted DME distances. So you really aren't ever navigating or identifying fixes by distance but virtually always by GPS waypoint. That even includes doing DME arcs into ILS/LOC approaches.

I don't have a link to Jepp's method for coding DME fixes without real GPS waypoint names but it should be easily findable and it's very straightforward using letter position to indicate miles.

 

I would dump the DME too.

But if serious about getting Flight Stream, with the GTN series you really want the 510.

 

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[N201MKTurbo]

I flew a Mooney to east Texas for AOPA a few weeks ago. The vacuum pump went out before I got to altitude. I flew the whole way with just a magnetic compass and an iPad. 

All you really need is an IPad.

[Browncbr1]

I pulled the trigger on a dual G5 and gtn install that will commence around end of November.   Going ahead and cutting a new panel at the same time for flush mount g5s  

Around that time, I'll be selling the below items.  

 

Mac1700vtx. (K175b with glide slope)

kx170b

ki-208

kn64

King 21 marker beacon

pma1000ii

remote electric magnetic compass

vacuum AI

vacuum DG with heading bug. (Works with Britain accuflite)

Alcor egt gauge