Why don't you ever hear anything about this anti ice method?

[peevee]

http://icesight.com/electric-pulse-ice-protection-system.php

 

There are a few different but similar systems, that one, emeds, that all work about the same. Why don't you ever hear of any development for ga on it?

[Marauder]

http://icesight.com/electric-pulse-ice-protection-system.php
 
There are a few different but similar systems, that one, emeds, that all work about the same. Why don't you ever hear of any development for ga on it?

Pretty interesting. Mention small aircraft but doesn't say anything about being certified for them. Suspect it maybe used in the experimental market. Would love to hear more from someone with experience with it.


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[peevee]

11 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

Pretty interesting. Mention small aircraft but doesn't say anything about being certified for them. Suspect it maybe used in the experimental market. Would love to hear more from someone with experience with it.


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The other "name brand" piezoelectric system emeds is used on certified airplanes.

 

http://www.coxandco.com/products/low_power_ice_protection_systems.htm

Honda jet, premier, hawker and a Boeing.

 

You would think given the potentially low cost the experimental crowd would be all over it.

[peevee]

I reached out to the company in the first post. They have no stcs yet but would be willing to work with me if I had ten airplanes willing to do it.

 

So, what would something like that be worth a gamble on? I suspect it could be fairly inexpensive but I'm waiting to hear.

[mccdeuce]

On 7/22/2017 at 10:05 AM, peevee said:

You would think given the potentially low cost the experimental crowd would be all over it.

Our experimentals can never be certified to FIKI - FARs require a type certificate. So in my opinion most just stay away from ice. 

[peevee]

25 minutes ago, mccdeuce said:

Our experimentals can never be certified to FIKI - FARs require a type certificate. So in my opinion most just stay away from ice. 

and plenty of mooneys have icing equipment and aren't certified for FIKI, but it's still better than nothing. People pay big money to cav for non fiki TKS systems.

and what of thermawing? You see plenty of lancairs with it.

[mccdeuce]

11 hours ago, peevee said:

and plenty of mooneys have icing equipment and aren't certified for FIKI, but it's still better than nothing. People pay big money to cav for non fiki TKS systems.

and what of thermawing? You see plenty of lancairs with it.

fair point about the Lancairs (although it is typically the very pricey Lancairs)

I am relatively new to Mooney's and did not know that there were some with de ice capabilities that were not FIKI.  Interesting.  I guess its good protection for worst case.  (I also have most of my flying below the mason dixon line)

[M016576]

6 hours ago, mccdeuce said:

fair point about the Lancairs (although it is typically the very pricey Lancairs)

I am relatively new to Mooney's and did not know that there were some with de ice capabilities that were not FIKI.  Interesting.  I guess its good protection for worst case.  (I also have most of my flying below the mason dixon line)

It's the age old debate- Fiki in a light single!  Or... do you really want to launch in that?!

some of the TKS systems are not FIKI on mooneys.  The difference is the STC required 28V alternators, and 2 pumps.  The non-FIKI systems have identical coverage, but are typically found on 14V aircraft, and have one main pump.  No difference in coverage or operation, but lack redundancy.  I'm still waiting to hear if anyone has ever had a TKS meter pump fail before.... haven't heard of one yet- but two are still required for the FIKI rating.

[Tommy]

Wonder if this will be like the CAPS, giving the pilots of singles a false sense of confidence? After all, there is no anti-ice on other important parts of the aircraft like prop and elevators...

[peevee]

4 minutes ago, Tommy said:

Wonder if this will be like the CAPS, giving the pilots of singles a false sense of confidence? After all, there is no anti-ice on other important parts of the aircraft like prop and elevators...

You can put it on the elevators. A lot of the 231s and 252s have hot props

 

[Tommy]

1 minute ago, peevee said:

You can put it on the elevators. A lot of the 231s and 252s have hot props

 

Can this system do that?

[peevee]

Just now, Tommy said:

Can this system do that?

The elevators? It should, the thumpers are tiny.

[carusoam]

The basic design theory of our Moonies...

There is no back-up of major components that have low probability of failure...

There are some back-up devices where able... landing gear drive, and vac pump...

If you want the best available anti-ice system, go FIKI...

If you want the most economical anti-ice system, go non-FIKI...

Anti-ice isn't very meaningful for gliders.  So an anti-ice system for the prop is going to be important....  

Moonies have two to choose from... fluid vs. electric.

 

Flight in IMC doesn't allow much wiggle room for critical device failures...

Pilots with high dispatch reliability requirements go FIKI...

Pilots that want to be home for work on Monday morning have choices to make...

 

Fun stuff,

-a-

[Marauder]

I'd be interested in understanding more about how this works. I don't think peevee is asking for the merits of flying in ice, rather just an interest in pursuing a safety device. As someone who flies in an area where icing happens, icing is where you find it. Having technology onboard that can help mitigate an inadvertent encounter -- at a reasonable price, is worth investigating.   

[peevee]

52 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I'd be interested in understanding more about how this works. I don't think peevee is asking for the merits of flying in ice, rather just an interest in pursuing a safety device. As someone who flies in an area where icing happens, icing is where you find it. Having technology onboard that can help mitigate an inadvertent encounter -- at a reasonable price, is worth investigating.   

There are some YouTube videos that demonstrate it. Basically it thumps the ice off.  I don't really have the patience to listen to lectures and pursue the stc, so I don't see this going anywhere. People can go back to arguing the merits of spraying WD-40 on their wings or whatever other hairbrained theories get passed around here.

[peevee]

1 hour ago, carusoam said:

The basic design theory of our Moonies...

There is no back-up of major components that have low probability of failure...

There are some back-up devices where able... landing gear drive, and vac pump...

If you want the best available anti-ice system, go FIKI...

If you want the most economical anti-ice system, go non-FIKI...

Anti-ice isn't very meaningful for gliders.  So an anti-ice system for the prop is going to be important....  

Moonies have two to choose from... fluid vs. electric.

 

Flight in IMC doesn't allow much wiggle room for critical device failures...

Pilots with high dispatch reliability requirements go FIKI...

Pilots that want to be home for work on Monday morning have choices to make...

 

Fun stuff,

-a-

None of which has anything to do with the topic at hand.

[peevee]

5 hours ago, M016576 said:

It's the age old debate- Fiki in a light single!  Or... do you really want to launch in that?!

some of the TKS systems are not FIKI on mooneys.  The difference is the STC required 28V alternators, and 2 pumps.  The non-FIKI systems have identical coverage, but are typically found on 14V aircraft, and have one main pump.  No difference in coverage or operation, but lack redundancy.  I'm still waiting to hear if anyone has ever had a TKS meter pump fail before.... haven't heard of one yet- but two are still required for the FIKI rating.

And heated fuel vents and heated stall switches, there's just a little bit more to it than a 24v system and extra pump.

[carusoam]

Don't forget the exterior light to make using the system at night a possibility...

 

PV,   That previous off topic post was the long lead-in for this one sentence that got left out...

 

One that doesn't interfere with the wing's leading edge would be greatly appreciated...

 

Otherwise, the existing systems work, and are available today...

 

the various anti-icing systems we see In development, take a huge amount of effort to commercialize.

If it exists, will I ever see it on my plane...?

It's going to take a lot of positivity.

Positivty isn't for everyone.  Fortunately, not everyone needs to be a positive force.

But if you are developing an anti-ice device on a limited budget... Positivity is going to be very helpful for you. 

Best regards,

-a-

[Piloto]

I think I will stick with Rain-X. Tested by my son on his car windshield in Pittsburgh brutal winter.

 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Rain-X-Original-Glass-Treatment-16-oz/19487527?wmlspartner=wmtlabs&adid=22222222222025383207&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10359473745&wl4=kwd-1103060547453&wl12=19487527_0&wl14=Rain-X&veh=sem

$5.00 at Walmart. It also comes for plastic windshields like those on boats and motorcycles. I applied on the wing leading edge and got 2 knots on speed increase, better than TKS 5 kts loss. Will try it in winter to see my grandson in PIT.

José

 

[peevee]

39 minutes ago, peevee said:

 whatever other hairbrained theories get passed around here.

 

6 minutes ago, Piloto said:

I think I will stick with Rain-X. Tested by my son on his car windshield in Pittsburgh brutal winter.

 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Rain-X-Original-Glass-Treatment-16-oz/19487527?wmlspartner=wmtlabs&adid=22222222222025383207&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10359473745&wl4=kwd-1103060547453&wl12=19487527_0&wl14=Rain-X&veh=sem

$5.00 at Walmart. It also comes for plastic windshields like those on boats and motorcycles. I applied on the wing leading edge and got 2 knots on speed increase, better than TKS 5 kts loss. Will try it in winter to see my grandson in PIT.

José

 

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

8 hours ago, M016576 said:

 No difference in coverage or operation, but lack redundancy.  I'm still waiting to hear if anyone has ever had a TKS meter pump fail before.... haven't heard of one yet- but two are still required for the FIKI rating.

I've flown 4 different planes with the TKS installation, 3 non-FIKI and 1 FIKI.   I've only had one pump fail and it was on the FIKI Bonanza, where I was glad I had the second pump (although I had altitude options that day as well).  Ironically, I have had the most issues in reliability with the known FIKI plane and it's the only system that let me down in an icing encounter (nothing to do with the certification level on that particular issue).  The redundancy does not extend to the filter, which plugged on me.  

I noticed upon my first TKS installation (my Mooney Rocket) that if you use a hand pump to extract the fluid from the drum, it will leave tiny bits of black rubber in the fluid.   Luckily I was skeptical of this, had used a paint filter in the funnel and it was the only way I would have been able to see the contamination.  Fast forward several years to the Bonanza TKS planes (owned by our mercy flight organization.  I had warned everyone to NOT use a pump unless they filtered the fluid and one pilot didn't believe me.  I had actually pulled the pump out of the drum and supplied a barrel stand to gravity fill the containers, yet they started using the pump again.  Wish he had been the one flying the day the filter plugged and the system quit!  Our maintenance shop had to completely drain the tank and flush it (while disconnected from the filter) to clean the contamination out.

Tom

[aviatoreb]

46 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I've flown 4 different planes with the TKS installation, 3 non-FIKI and 1 FIKI.   I've only had one pump fail and it was on the FIKI Bonanza, where I was glad I had the second pump (although I had altitude options that day as well).  Ironically, I have had the most issues in reliability with the known FIKI plane and it's the only system that let me down in an icing encounter (nothing to do with the certification level on that particular issue).  The redundancy does not extend to the filter, which plugged on me.  

I noticed upon my first TKS installation (my Mooney Rocket) that if you use a hand pump to extract the fluid from the drum, it will leave tiny bits of black rubber in the fluid.   Luckily I was skeptical of this, had used a paint filter in the funnel and it was the only way I would have been able to see the contamination.  Fast forward several years to the Bonanza TKS planes (owned by our mercy flight organization.  I had warned everyone to NOT use a pump unless they filtered the fluid and one pilot didn't believe me.  I had actually pulled the pump out of the drum and supplied a barrel stand to gravity fill the containers, yet they started using the pump again.  Wish he had been the one flying the day the filter plugged and the system quit!  Our maintenance shop had to completely drain the tank and flush it (while disconnected from the filter) to clean the contamination out.

Tom

I had a filter plug too - fortunately it only caused a failure during a routine process of running the system to keep it in good shape, on a clear day.

[Tommy]

8 hours ago, Piloto said:

I think I will stick with Rain-X. Tested by my son on his car windshield in Pittsburgh brutal winter.

 https://www.walmart.com/ip/Rain-X-Original-Glass-Treatment-16-oz/19487527?wmlspartner=wmtlabs&adid=22222222222025383207&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=e&wl1=o&wl2=c&wl3=10359473745&wl4=kwd-1103060547453&wl12=19487527_0&wl14=Rain-X&veh=sem

$5.00 at Walmart. It also comes for plastic windshields like those on boats and motorcycles. I applied on the wing leading edge and got 2 knots on speed increase, better than TKS 5 kts loss. Will try it in winter to see my grandson in PIT.

José

 

Wait, Jose. You are not serious, are you?

You do realize CB stands for cheap bastard not crazy bastard, right? 

And I am curious how did you work out that 2-kt increase?

 

 

[Piloto]

1 hour ago, Tommy said:

Wait, Jose. You are not serious, are you?

You do realize CB stands for cheap bastard not crazy bastard, right? 

And I am curious how did you work out that 2-kt increase?

 

 

By looking at the airspeed indicator.

[Tommy]

 

1 hour ago, Piloto said:

By looking at the airspeed indicator.

Analog or digital? Indicated or true or calibrated?