Upgrading Vintage Mooney's

[gsxrpilot]

There have been a couple of really nice "looking" Mooney's come up for sale lately on this site. This along with a number of users searching for months/years for a good bird without success. And other users who have purchased vintage Mooney's and then asking about how to upgrade certain expensive components has got me thinking about the best way to increase the value of our vintage birds.  I used to own a C and now own a K which falls into the Modern Mooney forum on this site, but is quickly achieving vintage status as well.

So here is my opinion on the subject.

I'll start with the assumption that I have a 40 to 50 year old Mooney that is all original. Therefore it really needs everything. Here is my list of upgrades in chronological order.

1. Engine monitor - An engine monitor is the best way to maintain the health and longevity of the single most important/expensive piece of my airplane. An engine monitor can reduce maintenance costs. It can also reduce running costs by allowing proper LOP operations and better fuel economy. It increases the enjoyment of flying by taking away many of the questions around how the engine is running during flight. This can be a relatively inexpensive upgrade.

2. Autopilot - This would be my first big upgrade. It would certainly come before paint, interior, panel, etc. Hopefully the cost of these comes down as TrueTrax and others come to market. But Mooney's are made to travel and traveling is so much more enjoyable with a good autopilot. It should be at a minimum one with altitude hold. I believe the minimum here is an Stec 30/altitude. Personally, I wouldn't buy a vintage Mooney without this already installed as it's an expensive upgrade. And if I was trying to sell a vintage bird and thinking to spend some serious money to improve it, the autopilot would be the first item on the list.

3. Moving Map/WAAS GPS - After the autopilot, this is the most useful upgrade. And if you're flying further than a local $100 hamburger, it makes the flying much more enjoyable. This is also on my list of "must have" for any Mooney I would purchase as it's an expensive upgrade with installation costs. WAAS is not only useful for IFR flying but also ADSB. A minimum here is a 430W. This also provides a relatively modern Radio as well which my vintage Mooney would also desperately need. A unit like this coupled to a decent autopilot will make for a very capable cross country traveling machine.

4. Panel - As I start addressing the aesthetics of my vintage Mooney, I'd start with the panel. At minimum, I'd rearrange the instruments into a standard 6-pack. This is a relatively inexpensive upgrade that will certainly pay dividends when trying to sell. At this time I'd get rid of any legacy instruments such as ADF, Narco radios, etc. and make sure I have a decent audio panel and something like a KX-155 as the minimum for my secondary comm.

5. ADSB - By now you already have a WAAS GPS, so adding ADSB isn't an expensive upgrade. But the benefits of ADSB for traffic is huge. It will also make your bird stand out when up for sale.

6. Avionics - Steam or glass isn't as important as having the proper instrumentation for IFR flight. If the instruments are good, I might swap the DG for an HSI. If the instruments are crap, I might go with a G5 or even Aspen. The important thing is to have a good safe IFR panel. Even if you're not Instrument rated, the pilot you sell to will likely be. Mooney's are excellent IFR platforms, and should be equipped as such. 

7. Interior - A new interior can make a huge difference in the overall enjoyability of a plane. But it's not nearly as important as the panel and avionics. Panel and Avionics are in your direct view during the entire flight and make a huge difference in the overall stress level of the flight. Interior is "nice to have" but certainly comes after. A full interior can be had for 10 AMU or so, but should certainly include leather covered yokes with proper PTT and other switches. Nothing is quite as ugly as a yoke with a home made bracket holding various buttons and switches. Nice yokes set off a nice panel perfectly.

8. Speed Mods - I personally don't know why anyone would paint a Mooney without first talking to LASAR to make sure all available Speed Mods have been installed. There is a Mooney for sale right now with a beautiful paint job, but without any of the bits that make it go fast. Speed Mods will need to be painted to match, so it only makes sense to do them prior to any paint job. The C that I owned looked like a short body, late model, J. And it out flew all C's, most E's and F's. Don't paint without first making it as slick as possible.

9. Paint - This is the very last upgrade I'd spend money on.  The plane needs to be perfect in every other way. Many upgrades such as speed mods, interior, panel, etc. to say nothing of maintenance such as gear pucks, tank re-sealing, engine overhauls, can mar a paint job. Therefore it should be the very last upgrade done to a vintage Mooney. Once the plane is perfect in every other way, all maintenance is up to scratch, there is nothing left to do, but you've got 10 AMU's burning a hole in your pocket, get it painted.  A beautifully painted bird, with a new leather interior, but old original yokes, no functioning autopilot, no WAAS GPS, old radios, and a shotgun panel is just a huge disappointment. 

Upgrade your vintage Mooney in the manner, and you might never put her up for sale. Every step in the process with be building on the upgrade before and will build the overall enjoyment of flying the plane. It will also increase the value of the plane and make it much easier to sell if that time ever comes.

I haven't addressed maintenance here, but suffice it to say that corrosion, tanks, gear pucks, engine and prop, all must be addressed and maintained as required. In fact, if you can't maintain these items, you can't afford an airplane. These things are a given, and should be deal breakers for anyone buying a vintage Mooney.

I'm aware that different people have different priorities. But I've organized this list not only based on my priorities but also those things that best maintain the value of the Mooney and will be of interest to the largest number of buyers. I'm interested in your opinions.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Another upgrade path:  Buy an inexpensive Vintage Mooney, carefully remove the data plate, and install it on an assembly of all new parts.  Any part you can't buy you can build as "owner produced."  Presto, you have the only brand new 2027 "C" model in the world  (I am figuring it would take about 10 years to complete)

Edited April 14, 2017 by Jerry 5TJ

[Andy95W]

19 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

There have been a couple of really nice "looking" Mooney's come up for sale lately on this site. This along with a number of users searching for months/years for a good bird without success. And other users who have purchased vintage Mooney's and then asking about how to upgrade certain expensive components has got me thinking about the best way to increase the value of our vintage birds.  I used to own a C and now own a K which falls into the Modern Mooney forum on this site, but is quickly achieving vintage status as well.

So here is my opinion on the subject.

I'll start with the assumption that I have a 40 to 50 year old Mooney that is all original. Therefore it really needs everything. Here is my list of upgrades in chronological order.

1. Engine monitor - An engine monitor is the best way to maintain the health and longevity of the single most important/expensive piece of my airplane. An engine monitor can reduce maintenance costs. It can also reduce running costs by allowing proper LOP operations and better fuel economy. It increases the enjoyment of flying by taking away many of the questions around how the engine is running during flight. This can be a relatively inexpensive upgrade.

2. Autopilot - This would be my first big upgrade. It would certainly come before paint, interior, panel, etc. Hopefully the cost of these comes down as TrueTrax and others come to market. But Mooney's are made to travel and traveling is so much more enjoyable with a good autopilot. It should be at a minimum one with altitude hold. I believe the minimum here is an Stec 30/altitude. Personally, I wouldn't buy a vintage Mooney without this already installed as it's an expensive upgrade. And if I was trying to sell a vintage bird and thinking to spend some serious money to improve it, the autopilot would be the first item on the list.

3. Moving Map/WAAS GPS - After the autopilot, this is the most useful upgrade. And if you're flying further than a local $100 hamburger, it makes the flying much more enjoyable. This is also on my list of "must have" for any Mooney I would purchase as it's an expensive upgrade with installation costs. WAAS is not only useful for IFR flying but also ADSB. A minimum here is a 430W. This also provides a relatively modern Radio as well which my vintage Mooney would also desperately need. A unit like this coupled to a decent autopilot will make for a very capable cross country traveling machine.

4. Panel - As I start addressing the aesthetics of my vintage Mooney, I'd start with the panel. At minimum, I'd rearrange the instruments into a standard 6-pack. This is a relatively inexpensive upgrade that will certainly pay dividends when trying to sell. At this time I'd get rid of any legacy instruments such as ADF, Narco radios, etc. and make sure I have a decent audio panel and something like a KX-155 as the minimum for my secondary comm.

5. ADSB - By now you already have a WAAS GPS, so adding ADSB isn't an expensive upgrade. But the benefits of ADSB for traffic is huge. It will also make your bird stand out when up for sale.

6. Avionics - Steam or glass isn't as important as having the proper instrumentation for IFR flight. If the instruments are good, I might swap the DG for an HSI. If the instruments are crap, I might go with a G5 or even Aspen. The important thing is to have a good safe IFR panel. Even if you're not Instrument rated, the pilot you sell to will likely be. Mooney's are excellent IFR platforms, and should be equipped as such. 

7. Interior - A new interior can make a huge difference in the overall enjoyability of a plane. But it's not nearly as important as the panel and avionics. Panel and Avionics are in your direct view during the entire flight and make a huge difference in the overall stress level of the flight. Interior is "nice to have" but certainly comes after. A full interior can be had for 10 AMU or so, but should certainly include leather covered yokes with proper PTT and other switches. Nothing is quite as ugly as a yoke with a home made bracket holding various buttons and switches. Nice yokes set off a nice panel perfectly.

8. Speed Mods - I personally don't know why anyone would paint a Mooney without first talking to LASAR to make sure all available Speed Mods have been installed. There is a Mooney for sale right now with a beautiful paint job, but without any of the bits that make it go fast. Speed Mods will need to be painted to match, so it only makes sense to do them prior to any paint job. The C that I owned looked like a short body, late model, J. And it out flew all C's, most E's and F's. Don't paint without first making it as slick as possible.

9. Paint - This is the very last upgrade I'd spend money on.  The plane needs to be perfect in every other way. Many upgrades such as speed mods, interior, panel, etc. to say nothing of maintenance such as gear pucks, tank re-sealing, engine overhauls, can mar a paint job. Therefore it should be the very last upgrade done to a vintage Mooney. Once the plane is perfect in every other way, all maintenance is up to scratch, there is nothing left to do, but you've got 10 AMU's burning a hole in your pocket, get it painted.  A beautifully painted bird, with a new leather interior, but old original yokes, no functioning autopilot, no WAAS GPS, old radios, and a shotgun panel is just a huge disappointment. 

Upgrade your vintage Mooney in the manner, and you might never put her up for sale. Every step in the process with be building on the upgrade before and will build the overall enjoyment of flying the plane. It will also increase the value of the plane and make it much easier to sell if that time ever comes.

I haven't addressed maintenance here, but suffice it to say that corrosion, tanks, gear pucks, engine and prop, all must be addressed and maintained as required. In fact, if you can't maintain these items, you can't afford an airplane. These things are a given, and should be deal breakers for anyone buying a vintage Mooney.

I'm aware that different people have different priorities. But I've organized this list not only based on my priorities but also those things that best maintain the value of the Mooney and will be of interest to the largest number of buyers. I'm interested in your opinions.

We need an Archive section or Paul will have to re-post this in 9 months. Again. 

[zaitcev]

29 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

1. Engine monitor -  ...

2. Autopilot - This would be my first big upgrade.

Not the same for me. My first big upgrade is going to be shoulder belts.

29 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

5. ADSB - By now you already have a WAAS GPS, so adding ADSB isn't an expensive upgrade. But the benefits of ADSB for traffic is huge. It will also make your bird stand out when up for sale.

Indeed, a Mooney that can't fly into Bravo and Charlie airports has a very limited utility.

29 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

6. Avionics - ... If the instruments are good, I might swap the DG for an HSI. If the instruments are crap, I might go with a G5 or even Aspen.

I'm thinking Sandia 340 myself. I don't want to depend on the vacuum pump (although I still have the PC system, so I cannot get rid of it).

[gsxrpilot]

I'll agree that shoulder belts should be first on anyone's list. But I don't consider it a big or expensive upgrade. In fact, if by chance I was looking at a Mooney that didn't have shoulder belts, I'd have them installed during the pre-buy after signing the purchase agreement. I don't believe I'd fly it until they were installed. It's pretty basic equipment.

[LevelWing]

Your list makes sense, though I've done things in a much different order than you listed. The first "major" upgrade we did was paint the plane but that was because a deal fell into our laps that we couldn't turn down, cost wise.

Obviously you've responded to my thread about what to upgrade next and you made some excellent points in your post. I think a transponder is more important for me right now than an engine monitor with the upcoming 2020 mandate. As you know, I live in and am based out of a Class C airport so this is big.

For me, starting with getting a standard 6 pack is the basis for all future upgrades (unless my train of thought is wrong, which is why I made that thread). Having a standard 6 pack makes the scanning easier and puts all necessary instruments in my view (in the picture in my thread you can see that the manifold pressure/fuel flow gauge is on the far right side and is hard to see with that raised, fake wood panel). With a standard 6 pack I can then upgrade as necessary.

I agree with your reasoning in each of your points and it's driving part of my thought process for what comes next.

[Rmag]

Logical chronology, of course the paint part may not be last if the paint is wearing off your plane and you have exposed sheet metal.  Especially if you live in a corision prone environment, I would argue paint should be considered part of the corrosion preventive maintenance.  It's not just for looks...

[rbridges]

I agree with just about everything, but I'd put gps ahead of autopilot. Great write up. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Reading this thread reminds me of visiting Havana last November.  We tourists love the old American cars:  I rode in a 54 Buick taxi.  Under the hood--a Nissan diesel drive train.  The sheet metal was a lovingly patched and welded and body-putty gleaming perfection. Originally a sedan, it had been cut down to a convertible.  It wasn't a 1954 Buick, it was a semi-reproduction assembled over decades.

We guys in our old Mooneys -- we're the aviation equivalent of Cuban cabbies.  No two of our planes are alike.  We've all patched things together.   I am including myself in that generalization.  Even my "modern" Ovation is 17 years old, and a great deal of it has been upgraded at least once already.  

It is a funny way to buy transportation.  

[gsxrpilot]

@LevelWing I actually wasn't specifically responding to your post. I was rather responding to several gorgeous Mooney's that are up for sale now, or have recently come up for sale. These are birds where owners have spent premium money for premium paint and interior, but are missing what I consider very fundamental and basic stuff. If I were trying to sell my Mooney, or even anticipating selling a few years down the road, I'd spend 15 AMU on an autopilot long before I'd spend 15 AMU's on paint.

I do understand adjusting these priorities if a great deal comes up on something, that will move it to the front of the line. 

[Bob_Belville]

Paul, I think you have the priorities just right and the list ought to be helpful for owners and shoppers.

Now, as to the thread title, N.B. everyone, please -- the plural of Mooney is Mooneys. (Apostrophes are for possessives or contractions, never for plurals.)  

[Marauder]

And another thing to keep in mind; know when enough is enough. If there is ANY chance you will move to another plane in the future, make sure the investments you are making will not have you upset down financially.

 

 

 

 

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[Marauder]

Yeah right!

What gave me away?

This picture?



Or this one?




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[dmc]

While I agree with most of your list, I don't see the upside of upgrading for the next buyer.  I have a vintage plane with no IFR gps.  It does have a very nice interior and paint.  I'm close to 60 and this is most likely my last plane, also my first.

i added shoulder harnesses, engine monitor, and gammi's.  I also have the brittain wing leveler and accutrak.

if I added a garmin 650 it would probably cost me at least 15k.  Adding altitude hold is probably 7k.  I've flown quite a few long cross country trips hand flying the entire way,  I do like my iPad and foreflight.  On long cross country's I actually take a spare iPad along.

i agree if I were to sell the plane it would be easier with a IFR gps and stec.  But I don't see how I would be money ahead.  The best value for these old planes would be to pay for what you need, and fly them till overhaul time and scrap the plane or find a usable engine to replace.  

If you have a $40k to $50k older mooney with lower engine times but older panel.  I'd say money wise it would be better over say 10years to save the say $25k plus in upgrades.  Hopefully you would have gotten some return on your money, so you would have that and even a runout plane is worth something.

Now if you have to be somewhere and fly a lot in IFR conditions it may well be worth it.  But these planes were flying before there were gps.  And for me I figure I can stay a lot of nights in hotel rooms before I spend $25k.  But I'm retired and don't have to be anywhere at a certain time.

 

[dmc]

How's this for a vintage panel.

[Raptor05121]

Its got a 6-pack layout, its better than mine

[rbridges]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

While I agree with most of your list, I don't see the upside of upgrading for the next buyer.  I have a vintage plane with no IFR gps.  It does have a very nice interior and paint.  I'm close to 60 and this is most likely my last plane, also my first.

i added shoulder harnesses, engine monitor, and gammi's.  I also have the brittain wing leveler and accutrak.

if I added a garmin 650 it would probably cost me at least 15k.  Adding altitude hold is probably 7k.  I've flown quite a few long cross country trips hand flying the entire way,  I do like my iPad and foreflight.  On long cross country's I actually take a spare iPad along.

i agree if I were to sell the plane it would be easier with a IFR gps and stec.  But I don't see how I would be money ahead.  The best value for these old planes would be to pay for what you need, and fly them till overhaul time and scrap the plane or find a usable engine to replace.  

If you have a $40k to $50k older mooney with lower engine times but older panel.  I'd say money wise it would be better over say 10years to save the say $25k plus in upgrades.  Hopefully you would have gotten some return on your money, so you would have that and even a runout plane is worth something.

Now if you have to be somewhere and fly a lot in IFR conditions it may well be worth it.  But these planes were flying before there were gps.  And for me I figure I can stay a lot of nights in hotel rooms before I spend $25k.  But I'm retired and don't have to be anywhere at a certain time.

 

It's all about your needs. Obviously your plane is right for you and no one can say different. You update the panel so you can use it. It's never a financial investment. 

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

While I agree with most of your list, I don't see the upside of upgrading for the next buyer.  I have a vintage plane with no IFR gps.  It does have a very nice interior and paint.  I'm close to 60 and this is most likely my last plane, also my first.

i added shoulder harnesses, engine monitor, and gammi's.  I also have the brittain wing leveler and accutrak.

if I added a garmin 650 it would probably cost me at least 15k.  Adding altitude hold is probably 7k.  I've flown quite a few long cross country trips hand flying the entire way,  I do like my iPad and foreflight.  On long cross country's I actually take a spare iPad along.

i agree if I were to sell the plane it would be easier with a IFR gps and stec.  But I don't see how I would be money ahead.  The best value for these old planes would be to pay for what you need, and fly them till overhaul time and scrap the plane or find a usable engine to replace.  

If you have a $40k to $50k older mooney with lower engine times but older panel.  I'd say money wise it would be better over say 10years to save the say $25k plus in upgrades.  Hopefully you would have gotten some return on your money, so you would have that and even a runout plane is worth something.

Now if you have to be somewhere and fly a lot in IFR conditions it may well be worth it.  But these planes were flying before there were gps.  And for me I figure I can stay a lot of nights in hotel rooms before I spend $25k.  But I'm retired and don't have to be anywhere at a certain time.

 

I won't disagree with you. My post was meant to raise issue with those who spend the $25K but spend it on the wrong things, in my opinion. 

I'm making a few assumptions here, so feel free to disagree :-)  I believe most planes will be up for sale by the owner at some point. @Marauder and @Bob_Belville would be the exceptions here. And there is certainly a market for vintage birds that are priced accordingly. But if one is going to spend 10's of AMU's on upgrades, there are some upgrades that give a better return on the investment at time of sale, as well as pay better returns on enjoyment prior to the sale.

 

[LevelWing]

I know that I'll have my plane for several more years (5+, likely). On one hand, I can see the argument of not wanting to spend $25k on upgrades when that $25k could go towards another plane. However, while I still have the current plane and am flying it, I'd like to make my trips safer and more enjoyable. I'll upgrade as I can. In the end, any upgrade I do will help sell the plane in the future and my return on investment is my satisfaction, enjoyment and safety in the mean time.

[HRM]

4 hours ago, dmc said:

While I agree with most of your list, I don't see the upside of upgrading for the next buyer.

I agree. This is, at best, a losing proposition, like remodeling a trailer before sale.

I only do things to my E for me. It's a terribly expensive habit, but then I will quote Saint-Exupery: But by the grace of the airplane I have known a more extraordinary experience than this, and have been made to ponder with even more bewilderment the fact that this earth that is our home is yet in truth a wandering star--Wind, Sand and Stars.

 

[Godfather]

Problem is if you are flying 0-30 hrs a year around the pattern on sunny days but really like the pride of ownership experience you might be happier with a shiny paint job. 

If you want your wife to fly with you it might be important to match the interior to her MB. 

I think your list is great for pilots who want to log some serious long distance trips but everyone has different needs. 

I think upgrading to sell, besides surface refreshing, is throwing money away. Fix the problems, catch up on maintenance, and list it. Hold the camera further back on the areas you want to downplay and price aggressively. 

[M20F]

Just like buying a plane (manufacturer, model, etc.) it really boils down to mission. 

[Marauder]

I know that I'll have my plane for several more years (5+, likely). On one hand, I can see the argument of not wanting to spend $25k on upgrades when that $25k could go towards another plane. However, while I still have the current plane and am flying it, I'd like to make my trips safer and more enjoyable. I'll upgrade as I can. In the end, any upgrade I do will help sell the plane in the future and my return on investment is my satisfaction, enjoyment and safety in the mean time.

 

As someone who has owned the same plane for 26 years, I held off on any major update for years. Outside of an engine analyzer and fuel totalizer, my first 7 years of ownership was fixing what I had to and replacing what I needed to.

 

After 7 years of ownership, I spent a good chunk of my avionics upgrade reserve on a full blown autopilot. After hand flying IFR for 7 years, it was more about the safety of my family than giving me a break from hand flying. After that upgrade, I did nothing major for the next 14 years other than making sure the plane was in tip top mechanical shape. After 21 years of ownership and with 2 VOR approaches at my favorite destinations being converted to RNAV approaches, I made the leap to a WAAS GPS.

 

I kick myself in the butt for waiting on the GPS but like most, I didn't see the value in doing the upgrade. Of course, having nothing to display the GPS on led to the Aspen, then to the next thing, then ADS-B and on it goes.

 

If I were to move onto another plane, I doubt I would sell, rather just get a bigger hangar. After you own a plane for 26 years, she's part of the family. She was there getting us to Grandma's at Christmas time, gave Grandpa his last airplane ride, took my kids safely to vacation spots and is always there when I have a rough day at the office and decide being alone at 9,500 is the cure.

 

Trying to put a value to this will never work. The math doesn't work unless you factor in the value it has on your life. Life is too short to worry about all the economics. Don't put yourself in the poor house owning an airplane but also don't expect them to plant you in a gold coffin. They have other plans for your money.

 

 

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[HRM]

11 hours ago, M20F said:

...it really boils down to mission. 

Always.

[tigers2007]

You are totally correct that there are some very nicely equipped "vintage" models on the market. For example, that RayJay C model that sold in a day here ($51k?) is something I would have jumped on in a heartbeat if I didn't have my Mooneypit already.

If I can stretch my motor to 2500hrs (three more years?) I guess I'll be happy. $25k+ for O/H. $3k or so for O/H of my Hartzell 3-blade too. Nothing like an $85k C model... sure beats a $799k new one though.

 

 

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