M20K 252 TSE Panel Upgrade

[mike_elliott]

35 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I think at some point I suspect the FAA will take an interest in this discussion. As an Aspen 2000 owner, I cannot use the MFD in reversion as the backup AI. It still required that I had a backup AI. But if I didn't have the Aspen, I could be fine to have the G5 as the only AI in the plane -- odd, to say the least.

Could also explain why some regional FSDOs are approving the G5 as a backup to the G500 or Aspen. 

First rule of investigation ...Follow the money

[bradp]

The other thing is that the G5 when installed as an AI for primary needs to be in the AI position in the "6 pack"; when installed as a TC for primary needs to be in the TC position as primary.  I can't see how that determination would allow the Aspen to be advisory only if it's installed in the front and center positions.  The logic must have been somehow different. ... unless the Aspen STC allows for use of a TC instead of an AI - which I can't find a reference to in the installation manual.

Here's something interesting:

So the basis of the use of G5 may have been approved by "separate installation approval" - i.e. by the FAA based on it's electrical isolation from the Aspen power bus with it's backup battery.  It still doesn't explain the position of the instruments in the panel.

 

 

[Marauder]

The other thing is that the G5 when installed as an AI for primary needs to be in the AI position in the "6 pack"; when installed as a TC for primary needs to be in the TC position as primary.  I can't see how that determination would allow the Aspen to be advisory only if it's installed in the front and center positions.  The logic must have been somehow different. ... unless the Aspen STC allows for use of a TC instead of an AI - which I can't find a reference to in the installation manual.
Here's something interesting:
So the basis of the use of G5 may have been approved by "separate installation approval" - i.e. by the FAA based on it's electrical isolation from the Aspen power bus with it's backup battery.  It still doesn't explain the position of the instruments in the panel.
 
 

That's why all of this is clear as mud. I think if you stuck a G5 in the primary AI positon, and put the Aspen PFD on the right side, move the altimeter over one spot, it may justify the positon issue.

The G5 is not certified to have the ASI or altimeter removed. Nor is it permissible to remove them as part of an Aspen PFD install. If you install an MFD with the internal battery, you cannot remove the AI, ASI or altimeter. If you add a MFD with the external battery, you can remove the ASI and the altimeter but not the AI.

In the case of Paul's installation, I saw they kept the ASI and altimeter. I wonder if that is how they were able to obtain the field approval. In my case, I have removed the ASI and altimeter (and the mechanical AI) all under the capabilities of the L-3 ESI-500's TSO.




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[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

In the case of Paul's installation, I saw they kept the ASI and altimeter. I wonder if that is how they were able to obtain the field approval. In my case, I have removed the ASI and altimeter (and the mechanical AI) all under the capabilities of the L-3 ESI-500's TSO.

 

I think Paul kept the encoding altimeter since that's what drives the KAS297B Altitude Pre-Select.

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

I think Paul kept the encoding altimeter since that's what drives the KAS297B Altitude Pre-Select.

Correct. BTW... I flew it today for the first time in I forgot how many months. We hope the entire process is done and it's fully airworthy tomorrow.  Today we were still missing a couple of probes/connectors, only one seat in the plane, and no interior.  

[Dream to fly]

@gsxrpilot,  Since my plane is going to be on the cover of your book showing what not to do yours can be on the back showing a finished product.  Fair is Fair    Nice panel layout

[gsxrpilot]

Took it up for a 2 hour shake down post maintenance flight today with @"Chocks". Flying Austin to Minneapolis tomorrow.

I'm glad we were able to flush mount everything including the G5. There are still a few squawks, but it goes in for Annual on August 1st. I'm going to put as many hours on it as possible between now and then.  The pard of the panel not yet done is the right side with the holes covered and the breakers. That will all get redone in August. I'm also still waiting on back order Kalixon switches from Mooney so a few are non-standard right now.

[jasona900]

Looks really nice, Paul.  Love the layout!

[Oldguy]

Paul, Looks great. What is over on the left side above the ignition?

[gsxrpilot]

11 hours ago, Oldguy said:

Paul, Looks great. What is over on the left side above the ignition?

The upper instrument is an amp/volt gauge. The 252 has two alternators and this gauge has needles for both. The lower instrument is a clock with various timer functions.

[gsxrpilot]

13 hours ago, jasona900 said:

Looks really nice, Paul.  Love the layout!

Thanks Jason.  We flew it from Austin to Minneapolis today and went just to the east of Omaha. I was talking to Omaha Approach and they were talking to another Mooney. I wondered if it might have been you, but I didn't know your N number to know. 

[jasona900]

2 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

Thanks Jason.  We flew it from Austin to Minneapolis today and went just to the east of Omaha. I was talking to Omaha Approach and they were talking to another Mooney. I wondered if it might have been you, but I didn't know your N number to know. 

Very nice.. it was not me however.  Stuck in the office all day.  Should you decide to stop in Omaha on your way back, maybe we can put together a photo flight. 

 

[Danb]

Looks nice Paul

 

[Oldguy]

11 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

The upper instrument is an amp/volt gauge. The 252 has two alternators and this gauge has needles for both. The lower instrument is a clock with various timer functions.

I thought they might be, but I had them reversed in my mind. I forgot about the two alternators, and I thought I  could see two needles and assigned that one "clock" in my mind. The other one looks somewhat like my digital volt/amp gauge as well, but now I realize it also looks like my LC-2 clock/timer. Thanks.

[Oldguy]

Where does the KX-165 NAV display? Is the Aspen switchable between the IFD and the KX?

Sorry for the constant stream of questions, but I like the clean look of your panel and am trying to figure out what I could do in a similar vein to mine.

Not copyrighted, is it?

[Marauder]

Where does the KX-165 NAV display? Is the Aspen switchable between the IFD and the KX?
Sorry for the constant stream of questions, but I like the clean look of your panel and am trying to figure out what I could do in a similar vein to mine.
Not copyrighted, is it?

The Aspen has a switchable CDI (on the HSI) and also dual RMI needles.


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[gsxrpilot]

5 hours ago, Oldguy said:

Where does the KX-165 NAV display? Is the Aspen switchable between the IFD and the KX?

Sorry for the constant stream of questions, but I like the clean look of your panel and am trying to figure out what I could do in a similar vein to mine.

Not copyrighted, is it?

Hell no, copy it all you like! I'd be flattered.

One of the squawks, and there are several, is that the KX doesn't display on the Aspen. The Aspen doesn't seem to know it's there.

I flew it a fair distance over the last two days and am compiling a list of squawks. Of course, a big part of it is that I just don't know how to use any of this stuff yet. So I'm reading and learning.

I flew Austin to Minneapolis yesterday and Minneapolis to Brunswick, Maine today. It was all IFR with plenty of IMC. I crossed Lake Michigan, and a piece of Lake Erie and Lake Ontario. But the good new is the weather here is cool and the lobster rolls are fresh.  It's a pretty good way to get across the country.

[Bob_Belville]

16 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

But the good new is the weather here is cool and the lobster rolls are fresh.  

Paul, I'm jealous. Lobster rolls are fine but don't pass up the whole enchilada. (Like my Texas talk?)  

http://fostersclambake.com/

Be sure to try the lobster tomalley and roe (ask for a female) and a couple of pounds of "steamers".

[Cruiser]

I see you stopped in KTOL.

On the way back stop at KPCW and I will buy lunch at the diner.

[carusoam]

And leave off the R (aah) fa steamas, it helps when trying to fit in... 

Best regards,

-a-

[Oldguy]

6 hours ago, carusoam said:

And leave off the R fa steamas, it helps when trying to fit in... 

Best regards,

-a-

And after you have them, you will know why they are called "steam ahhhs".

[DanM20C]

On 6/30/2017 at 8:01 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Hell no, copy it all you like! I'd be flattered.

I'm going to try my best to copy it..

Paul, I"m assuming you have the AXP322 remote mount transponder?  How do you like having that with the IFD?  I"m debating if I wan't the stand alone or remote mount transponder.  I would like to keep everything in one stack so the remote would help with that.  But I have the C41 autopilot so I don't have AP control in the radio stack. I might be able to squeeze it all in. 

Is there a reason for the small gap between the KX165 and IFD? 

Cheers,

Dan

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, DanM20C said:

I'm going to try my best to copy it..

Paul, I"m assuming you have the AXP322 remote mount transponder?  How do you like having that with the IFD?  I"m debating if I wan't the stand alone or remote mount transponder.  I would like to keep everything in one stack so the remote would help with that.  But I have the C41 autopilot so I don't have AP control in the radio stack. I might be able to squeeze it all in. 

Is there a reason for the small gap between the KX165 and IFD? 

Cheers,

Dan

I regret not getting the AXP322 remote. It was $1000 more expensive a couple of years ago. Now they list for the same price and I hear you can buy it cheaper than an AXP340.

[gsxrpilot]

6 hours ago, DanM20C said:

I'm going to try my best to copy it..

Paul, I"m assuming you have the AXP322 remote mount transponder?  How do you like having that with the IFD?  I"m debating if I wan't the stand alone or remote mount transponder.  I would like to keep everything in one stack so the remote would help with that.  But I have the C41 autopilot so I don't have AP control in the radio stack. I might be able to squeeze it all in. 

Is there a reason for the small gap between the KX165 and IFD? 

Cheers,

Dan

Yes, I really like having the AXP322 remote transponder. You typically only set or change the squawk code once or maximum twice during a flight. And its so easy to do from the IFD540 screen. So why have a transponder taking up space in the panel when you never use it. I put everything in the tail that I could including the EA100 autopilot interface for the Aspen. You might not need that with a C41. As you can tell, I wanted a clean minimalist panel. And the more I fly with it the more I like it.

The reason for the gap between the KX165 and the IFD is just that it worked out that way. We didn't move the KFC150 and because the PMA450a audio and the IFD540 were slide in replacements for the 530 and the GMA340, we really didn't change up the center stack.  But I did remove a KNS80 and replaced it with the KX165 which was just a little bit smaller leaving the small gap. I keep thinking that one of these days I'll open up that gap and line it with felt or something to make a tray where I can toss a note pad or something.

I tried to think of the things I use regularly on every flight and spend money to have the best of those items and not spend on other stuff. The second nav/com is just not used that often in the current /G environment. So I just found me a used KX165 just to have a second nav/com but without spending a lot on it.

[xcrmckenna]

I'm going to try my best to copy it..
Paul, I"m assuming you have the AXP322 remote mount transponder?  How do you like having that with the IFD?  I"m debating if I wan't the stand alone or remote mount transponder.  I would like to keep everything in one stack so the remote would help with that.  But I have the C41 autopilot so I don't have AP control in the radio stack. I might be able to squeeze it all in. 
Is there a reason for the small gap between the KX165 and IFD? 
Cheers,
Dan

I second the AXP322, Paul helped talk me into it and not one regret.


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