Quick avionics question if I update to G500

[carusoam]

Robert,

Clearing up Some context...

The OP has two choices...

1) Big G

2) The consortium of other nav equipment suppliers.

3) the third and fourth elephants in the room are the FAA and Mooney. Both are equally involved with the two choices.

 

4) What is a challenge for me to describe is the choice of business practices that Big G uses.  They don't want any partnerships and they do pretty well at defending against having partnerships.

5) when deciding on Big G vs. the collective other guys it is important to understand the issues that may get in the way out in the future...

6) when it came to number 8) above...  there were two choices...

- saw Big G practices, and weren't phased by it, found they handled it just fine...

- saw Big G practices, and found the inability to integrate solutions from other suppliers, leaving them unimpressed...

7) I'm a big fan of a fully integrated solution for my plane.

8) installing a fully integrated system all at once is like eating an elephant. An expensive elephant.

9) the end results are both fully 2020 capable waas solutions with traffic and weather...

10) the Non-waas debacle is in the rear-view mirror.  

11) What's the next technology over the horizon?

12) How is Big G going to handle it?

13) How is the consortium going to handle it?

14) There is always going to be a next technology...

15) Changes with part 23 might make the other elephants easier to get along with.  

I need to read up on the differences between the G500 and G600 systems...  

Hope this helps describe the challenges of making the choice.

Best regards,

-a-

[THill182]

Thanks for all the input. Realistically, I must think about both a glass update, ADS-B, and a better engine monitor -- in other words: Major surgery!

One thing that might make that more palatable is that when I look at used-airplane pricing, updated glass cockpits have a clear value: I am guestimating that across different aircraft types (single engine pistons), it looks to me like a G500 all-glass adds at least 30k to 50k (more than the install?). That is my impression after an informal review of what is out there for sale. I am pretty certain that updated glass cockpits also make it easier to move a used airplane.

I have no plans to give up my Ovation, but of course the time will come eventually. Then again, I hope to outlive the useful / commercial life of current glass cockpit technologies, so perhaps by that logic should wait a bit longer for the next big thing (Wireless hotspots and in-flight internet; heads-up display, or just maybe one box that does-it-all and is a fully integrated flight deck....).

Anyway, mostly confusing at this point. (I know there are lots of other discussions here about the value of glass; don't want to reopen that...)

 

[StevenL757]

Tom, no matter how far you decide to go with any of this, it's a huge decision and a very personal one.  I was confused for a couple of years or more before settling on a decision.  Then I put off the project yet again for another year or so, as "other things" took over.  Frustration replaced confusion at that point.  Now, 9 months post-upgrade, I still smile every time I climb in the cockpit, because I think "this isn't mine...I have to give it back".  I'm grateful and very fortunate to have been able to do what I did, and from a safety and functionality standpoint, haven't for one second ever questioned whether I did the right thing.  You will get there sooner than you imagine.  :-)

[ArtVandelay]

Glass on a Ovation, yea, you can get most of your money back.
Glass on a M20C...not so much.
Most glass panel planes also have nice interiors,exteriors, so it's hard to compare.
I've yet to hear of anyone regretting to go to glass unless there is problems afterwards.

[THill182]

Thanks for the encouraging notes; there is that thought that time & life are short and often unpredictable, and while one has the opportunity and fortunate circumstances to enjoy something without jeopardizing "the farm" (or hurting anyone) -- why not do that.

Regarding the "nice interior": No doubt, the overall shape of the plane is critical. Mine has been hangared and I have been using seat covers pretty much from the beginning. Mostly my paint on the nose probably needs to be touched up or redone at some point, but else it'll clean up nicely. I also have AC, inadvertent Ice, active TCAS, 310 HP, and 120 Gallons usable (fly form Tulsa to Seattle nonstop if you like to sit for long stretches at a time...:) ). Only problem is some damage in 2000 (first year) when the engine quit on the first owner forcing him to run off the runway -- that all was repaired at Mooney, and the plane does really well in all other respects (cruise at 175kt to 180kt at 13.5 GPH LOP; that is about the highest setting I run it at).

Anyway, now it is a matter of timing. The install will take several weeks and the first slot is not until mid-summer(!). But I feel there are colorful computer screens in my future!

 

[carusoam]

TH

where are you?

DK has a nice LB panel that can be used as a model. (West coast)

Steven has a nice LB panel that can be used as a template. (East coast)

Smoke em, if you got em...  

Best regards,

-a-

[THill182]

CARUSOAM: I am in the middle and near Autopilots Central in Tulsa (who always has done very high quality installations in my planes over nearly 2 decades). I personally am intrigued at this point by the picture of the 2 Aspens and JPI EDM 930 in an earlier post. I will discuss this with Autopilots Central how exactly  the interfaces in my panel may work (i.e., with autopilot, rate-of-climb, TCAS, strikefinder (?), weather, approaches, ...). Will keep you all posted as I will proceed likely later this year (earliest I could get in for an install is June/July).

[Marauder]

2 minutes ago, THill182 said:

CARUSOAM: I am in the middle and near Autopilots Central in Tulsa (who always has done very high quality installations in my planes over nearly 2 decades). I personally am intrigued at this point by the picture of the 2 Aspens and JPI EDM 930 in an earlier post. I will discuss this with Autopilots Central how exactly  the interfaces in my panel may work (i.e., with autopilot, rate-of-climb, TCAS, strikefinder (?), weather, approaches, ...). Will keep you all posted as I will proceed likely later this year (earliest I could get in for an install is June/July).

Just be mentally prepared for a state of this for a period of time:

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, THill182 said:

Anyway, now it is a matter of timing. The install will take several weeks and the first slot is not until mid-summer(!). But I feel there are colorful computer screens in my future!

 

I would make sure it was at least the week after Oshkosh just in case there are any new announcements from Garmin or Aspen.

[THill182]

8 hours ago, Marauder said:

Just be mentally prepared for a state of this for a period of time:

....

That looks like a serious VFR-only panel -- i.e., the lack of a panel. The downtime is something I am also trying to minimize...

[Marauder]

That looks like a serious VFR-only panel -- i.e., the lack of a panel. The downtime is something I am also trying to minimize...

Hopefully not for much longer. She was a decent panel before the upgrade, just finishing off the ADS-B upgrade.




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[glenn reynolds]

I have a gns530 and a g500 installed and can offer a few comments.  First about the g500.  The display is awesome.  Bright sunlight, pitch black at night, it adjusts and is very easy to read.  I've not flown the aspen, but I sure would want to confirm that the screen is as good.  next comment on the databases.  You may or may not want to pay to put charts on the g500.  It would seem that putting charts on is an option and costs a lot of money extra.  I just finished flying a series of instrument approaches all at night and all ifr.  I found that I had the approach plate on foreflight as I can overlay it on the map and vary the opacity so I'm ready for the missed with no further workload.  The g500 has the route depicted as pushed from the gns530,  But I have the GNS 530 on a different scale so I have the whole approach and traffic all visible., while the g500 is zoomed in tight.  My GNS 430 is set up for the alternate airport with it's approach loaded.  I do pay jeppsen about $800 per year to update the safetaxi information but I will be switching to garmin as they seem to be a much better deal using their bundle pricing.  I can highly recommend the garmin flightstream 210 as it allows foreflight to send flight plans to the gns530 which is brilliant when I get a clearance change inroute, which seems a required procedure when flying in southern California.  

 

[Mark89114]

On April 5, 2017 at 4:50 PM, Marauder said:

 

You don't need the dual electrical system if you install a unit that can act as a certified backup to the G500. This is true of the Aspens as well.

What you will need is a unit like an L-3 ESI-500 or with field approval, the Sandia Quattro. I'm currently installing a ESI-500 in my F. It will allow me to remove my AI/vacuum system as well as the ASI and altimeter.


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Why do I "need" a certified backup to the G500 or the aspen for that matter?   I am on the plank way to making upgrade decisions, but replacement of a failing vacuum standby indicator is moving up those decisions.  I have the KI-256/KFC225 and that issue has been been beat to death (why no KI-300, anyway)..... I have an ovation with all of the redundancies, two alternators, batteries, EMER bus, etc.. My thinking is replace the failing standby with a G5 and kick the can down road on expensive upgrades till later.  But is there an installation requirement?   I am by no means saying don't need a backup, but how that is done is my confusion/concern.  

[Marauder]

Why do I "need" a certified backup to the G500 or the aspen for that matter?   I am on the plank way to making upgrade decisions, but replacement of a failing vacuum standby indicator is moving up those decisions.  I have the KI-256/KFC225 and that issue has been been beat to death (why no KI-300, anyway)..... I have an ovation with all of the redundancies, two alternators, batteries, EMER bus, etc.. My thinking is replace the failing standby with a G5 and kick the can down road on expensive upgrades till later.  But is there an installation requirement?   I am by no means saying don't need a backup, but how that is done is my confusion/concern.  

Take a look at the Garmin 1000 equipped version of any plane and you will see a standby AI in them. It is the way the requirement is written for the unit, whether it is a 1000, G500 or Aspen. They all call for a secondary AI in the panel. And the requirements is specific and what can function as that backup.

When I heard about the G5 becoming available as a primary replacement, I was excited that I could finally get rid of my vacuum "backup" AI. It wasn't to be. I checked with Trek from Garmin and he posted reply that it was only certified as a primary, not as a backup for any electronic glass panel and they had no plans to do make it certified.

Later I posted Jim Keeth's email to me on the topic. He explained the specific TSOs that needed to be met to make a unit certifiable as a backup.

So I can take out my vacuum driven AI based on a 70+ year design, replace it with a G5 but can't let it act as a backup to my current generation glass plane? Yep.

Is this all stupid? You betcha. Hopefully it will change.


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[Marauder]

I should also note some are obtaining field approvals for the G5 to act in that capacity. If this is true, then some FSDOs are accepting them as a backup. I can tell you from personal experience, if you move from one FSDO area to another, they may not see things the same.


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[Mark89114]

Well when all else fails read the manuals......apparently the G5 can't be installed in known FIKI aircraft as well, doesn't make mention if that is use as a primary or backup, just can't be installed.  If I read everything right.....

Ok, I am picking up what you are putting down, but the certification rules are absurd..

[Rmag]

@Marauder have you considered any other backups since the G5 isn't approved?  L-3 ESI-500?

[Marauder]

[mention=9886]Marauder[/mention] have you considered any other backups since the G5 isn't approved?  L-3 ESI-500?

That is what is currently being installed. But as you probably know, it ain't a cheap alternative. I do like that it can handle Nav inputs and the display is pretty crisp.

The good news I am saving some more useful load. Ah, what we would do for a pound here or there!




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[Marauder]

Well when all else fails read the manuals......apparently the G5 can't be installed in known FIKI aircraft as well, doesn't make mention if that is use as a primary or backup, just can't be installed.  If I read everything right.....

Ok, I am picking up what you are putting down, but the certification rules are absurd..

 

Never said they weren't absurd. For me to pay 4x the cost for a backup is what is absurd.

 

I know the L-3 ESI-500 I am having installed can support a remote magnetometer to avoid the heated windshield issue on some planes. Is that an option?

 

I did a lot of research on these backups. The Sandia Quattro and the L-3 are the only approved all electronic AHRS based units I could find being approved as a backup to glass (and the Sandia still needs a field approval). You can still go the electrical route with an electric AI, but I got to believe those are expensive.

 

 

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[Mark89114]

Well everything is an option.....being a semi CB is the issue....I just hate spending more money for options that might not be as good or are overkill.  Or might not be valid down the road which sounds like the G5 might be, if I decide to go aspen or G500 or dare I mention KI-300(ha ha ha)...

[Rmag]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I know the L-3 ESI-500 I am having installed can support a remote magnetometer to avoid the heated windshield issue on some planes. Is that an option?

 

The standard unit will show heading from a GPS source.  The optional magnetometer gives you an independent magnetic heading that is not dependent on your GPS.  I opted for this option with the rationale that if I had a complete electric loss, with the magnetometer I would still have airspeed, attitude, altitude, and heading all in one place.  I'm planning on putting in a battery backup that will feed my NAV/COMM so I would still have radios and VOR/ILS Navigation as well in an emergency.

[Marauder]

The standard unit will show heading from a GPS source.  The optional magnetometer gives you an independent magnetic heading that is not dependent on your GPS.  I opted for this option with the rationale that if I had a complete electric loss, with the magnetometer I would still have airspeed, attitude, altitude, and heading all in one place.  I'm planning on putting in a battery backup that will feed my NAV/COMM so I would still have radios and VOR/ILS Navigation as well in an emergency.

I elected to have the ESI get the feed from the GPS. Both of my Aspens have their own flux compass. Let me know what you come up with for battery backup to the Nav.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

3 hours ago, Marauder said:

I elected to have the ESI get the feed from the GPS. Both of my Aspens have their own flux compass. Let me know what you come up with for battery backup to the Nav

 

I have the older ESI-2000 serving as certified backup to the G500.  It gets its heading data, I'm nearly certain, from the GMU44 magnetometer via the G500 suite, and not from GPS track data.  

When the CFII "fails" the G500 suite as he does every year by powering it off (he can't seem to help himself) the magnetic heading info on the ESI-2000 is "X-ed" out.  

The rest of the ESI-2000 data -- airspeed, baro altitude and attitude gyro -- remain operating.  

Buying the pricey ESI-2000 optional magnetometer would solve that, but I found it easy enough to fly using GPS ground track from the GTN750 map page. 

Or I just drive the little airplane down the magenta line to the airport. 

As a dead-last resort I might look at the whiskey compass.  That's  if I happen to remember it exists. 

 

[Marauder]

I have the older ESI-2000 serving as certified backup to the G500.  It gets its heading data, I'm nearly certain, from the GMU44 magnetometer via the G500 suite, and not from GPS track data.  
When the CFII "fails" the G500 suite as he does every year by powering it off (he can't seem to help himself) the magnetic heading info on the ESI-2000 is "X-ed" out.  
The rest of the ESI-2000 data -- airspeed, baro altitude and attitude gyro -- remain operating.  
Buying the pricey ESI-2000 optional magnetometer would solve that, but I found it easy enough to fly using GPS ground track from the GTN750 map page. 
Or I just drive the little airplane down the magenta line to the airport. 
As a dead-last resort I might look at the whiskey compass.  That's  if I happen to remember it exists. 
 

Then again you could have an Aspen 2000 with dual redundancy, dual batteries and the ESI-500. The guy who does my IPCs has given up trying to find a way to partial panel me with the Aspens.

He has even resorted to turning off the avionics master only to be foiled once again by the flight plan from the GPS still being retained in the Aspen.

Far cry from the old days.


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[Rmag]

4 hours ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

but I found it easy enough to fly using GPS ground track from the GTN750 map page.

That is of course assuming that you have the GTN 750 which would not be the case in a full electrical failure.  Having an iPad is also a good MFD for a full electrical failure.