Quick avionics question if I update to G500

[THill182]

I know this has been discussed extensively, but I didn't see the specific answer to my question. And my avionics shop gave me an unexpected answer:

If I update my 2000 M20R with the part-vacuum driven vintage KFC 225 system  and a Garmin 530 / 430 combo (WAAS) -- to a Garmin G500 system, how many data card subscriptions will I need for the entire system? Will I need 2 extra cards for each of the G500'ds? Or do I only need those if I want the Jepp charts? I am trying to figure out cost-of-ownership. I already have subscriptions on an Ipad and another handheld Garmin 695 with all maps and plates. So I really don't need yet another subscription to update.

 

If the G500 acts just like a regular AI and DG that it replaces, then I won't need extra subscriptions. That's what the avionics shop told me (don't need another subscription).

 

Anyone know the answer to this? Note that I want to maintain IFR certification of course!

 

[ArtVandelay]

You do know Garmin has Pilot Paks which give all data for multiple boxes?

[Robert C.]

I would have thought that the 530 drives everything so that if you have SD card loaded in the 530 you are good to go, but suggest you call Garmin to get the real answer. It's been several years since I looked at that question and working off an old recollection here.

[THill182]

Thanks; I'll give Garmin a call to figure out what the requirements are and what the options are.... Thanks

[StevenL757]

Tom, your GDU620 (G500) will come with two data cards - a NAV data only card for the upper slot, and a card containing SafeTaxi, Obstacles, Charts (Garmin FliteCharts or Jeppesen - your choice), Airport Directory, and Terrain which goes in the lower slot.  The NAV data in the upper card is copied to the GDU620 resident memory, and then that card comes out.  The lower card will stay in at all times.

If you decide on Flitecharts for your G500, you'll continue using Garmin's update procedures.  If you decide to spring for a JeppView subscription, you'll get everything from them via their Jeppesen Distribution Manager (JDM) tool.

Your avionics shop is technically correct, in that you won't need "another" subscription, but as Robert points out, Garmin can model your existing subscription and quote you accordingly, should you decide on the G500.  If you choose to upgrade the 530W and/or 430W to the 650/750 platform eventually, the good news is your pricing model would change little, if any.  Let me know if this helps.

Steve

[THill182]

2 minutes ago, StevenL757 said:

....Garmin can model your existing subscription and quote you accordingly, should you decide on the G500.  If you choose to upgrade the 530W and/or 430W to the 650/750 platform eventually, the good news is your pricing model would change little, if any.  Let me know if this helps.

Thank you Steve, really appreciate the info. So I will need extra cards if I want to show approach plates or taxi diagrams on the G500 -- makes sense since that info is currently not on the data cards in my 530W. I will call Garmin to find out what kind of deal they might have for "heavy users" of their products (between the 540W, 430W, 695 portable, and potentially Ipad (currently with the AOPA application).

 

Thanks again, exactly what I wanted to know.

TOM

[StevenL757]

Correct - upper and lower cards are included with the GDU620, so no need to purchase separately, unless you want an additional pair.

[LANCECASPER]

Not sure if you are thinking this direction, but if you are thinking about major panel surgery, wouldn't hurt to do a primary engine monitor at the same time. The Moritz gauges on your Ovation are just a matter of time . . . they start going one by one.

[THill182]

7 hours ago, LANCECASPER said:

Not sure if you are thinking this direction, but if you are thinking about major panel surgery, wouldn't hurt to do a primary engine monitor at the same time. The Moritz gauges on your Ovation are just a matter of time . . . they start going one by one.

That is a good point! The light in one of my gages already is out during the day, still works at night when I turn on illumination manually. So far they all do perform their primary function though (the RPM gage is not useful since I upgraded to 2700 RPM and 310 HP).

What would you recommend? Can one wire it all into the G500 somewhere? Or do I need a brand new display? What I really would like to have is a way to download all engine/flight data for analysis. Right now my JPI engine monitoring equipment (CHT, EGT) only displays info but stores no history. What would be the most economical way to replace the whole Moritz cluster with a single more capable and useful display & gaging?

And while we're at it: How are you (with the 2000-vintage KFC 225 setup + 530W/430W + Bendix/King Transponder) planning on complying with ADS-B mandates?

(Now probably getting real expensive -- hope it won't be more economical to just buy a new plane...)

[PTK]

22 minutes ago, THill182 said:

...What would you recommend? Can one wire it all into the G500 somewhere? Or do I need a brand new display?...

Tom, this is a major sticking point for me with the G500 and was hoping G would introduce it. If they can do it on the G3x touch on one screen I don't see why they can't put it on the G500 that has two screens. 

 

[kmyfm20s]

With the last software update you only need 1 card in the bottom slot of the G500. This required a new card with larger memory for the increase in screen resolution and the fact everything goes on 1 card. I don't used Jepp Charts on the G500 I use the standard NACO that I purchase with my Garmin pilotpak for my G500/750/650/Pilot combo. Im not sure with the Jepp charts you would need an addition card for the charts but with the standard you do not. I did buy the the Jeppessen charts for my Garmin Pilot app. Which I prefer since during approaches in IMC I dont like having the charts on my G500 screen. I prefer the jeppesen charts on my yoke. The charts on the G500 have to be manipulated to much in my opinion to see all the information.

[LANCECASPER]

3 hours ago, THill182 said:

That is a good point! The light in one of my gages already is out during the day, still works at night when I turn on illumination manually. So far they all do perform their primary function though (the RPM gage is not useful since I upgraded to 2700 RPM and 310 HP).

What would you recommend? Can one wire it all into the G500 somewhere? Or do I need a brand new display? What I really would like to have is a way to download all engine/flight data for analysis. Right now my JPI engine monitoring equipment (CHT, EGT) only displays info but stores no history. What would be the most economical way to replace the whole Moritz cluster with a single more capable and useful display & gaging?

And while we're at it: How are you (with the 2000-vintage KFC 225 setup + 530W/430W + Bendix/King Transponder) planning on complying with ADS-B mandates?

(Now probably getting real expensive -- hope it won't be more economical to just buy a new plane...)

The two choices that people seem to be going with for certified engine instruments are the JPI930 https://www.jpinstruments.com/shop/edm-930-primary/ (the 900 is certified also but smaller screen) and the EI MVP50 http://buy-ei.com/portfolio/mvp-50p-overview/.

I had a 2000 Ovation where the previous owner had put in Aspens and a JPI EDM 930. It was a very nice setup.

After I bought it I replaced the Garmin 530W and 430W with an Avidyne IFD 540 and 440. I replaced the transponder with an Avidyne AXP340 to get ADS-B out.

 

 

 

[jetdriven]

That took a very nice panel beyond nice and into the extraordinary category.  Nicely done !

[THill182]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

That took a very nice panel beyond nice and into the extraordinary category.  Nicely done !

Indeed; probably allows you to remove the front window since there is hardly any reason any more to look outside ...

Not to open yet another can-of-worms: But is it fair to say that owners are pretty happy with their Aspen's -- as happy as Garmin owners are with their G500'ds? I know one pilot who keeps telling me that Aspen's are not reliable. But I greatly suspect that the quality of the installation shop there may have more to do with that than the equipment itself. Is there any consensus with respect to quality comparing Gamin and Aspen? Else, this looks indeed like a GREAT panel.

 

[carusoam]

1) If money is more than less..

2) If Brand name is more important than less...

3) If you prefer or can handle a single supplier over multiple suppliers...

4) If you prefer to buy from a reputable source than compare all the specs to make decisions...

4.5) If you want to put things on the back avionics shelf instead of the panel while swapping out some Charlie weights...

Go Big G!

 

5) saving a few AMUs is very important...

6) reviewing and deciding on various specs from multiple suppliers is your game...

7) abhor being stuck relying on one provider...

8) Seen how Big G handled the G1000 Waas issue and weren't impressed?

9) remember how BK used to be the big gorilla, and weren't impressed back then either...?

10) appreciate software updates, portable keyboards and other techy things...?

Go Aspen and Avidyne!

Overall, you are going to get your money's worth from these suppliers.  They have come a long way from a pair of the standard KX170Bs and an HSI.

Stuff I learned about by reading MS...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited April 5, 2017 by carusoam

[thinwing]

In addition to the g500 you will need the gad43 (e)autopilot adaptor so that the ahrs can give attitude data to the KFC 225 autopilot.

[Jerry 5TJ]

29 minutes ago, thinwing said:

In addition to the g500 you will need the gad43 (e)autopilot adaptor so that the ahrs can give attitude data to the KFC 225 autopilot.

True.  But the G500 can't control altitude or VS preselects for the KFC225, even with the GAD43e.  Neither can Aspen.  Honeywell has not updated autopilot firmware to permit external preselect of altitude and VS.  

You can remove vacuum system(s) if you have dual alternators in your 2000 Ovation.   

 

 

[THill182]

9 minutes ago, Jerry 5TJ said:

You can remove vacuum system(s) if you have dual alternators in your 2000 Ovation.   

 

 

That is the scary part: This is actually news to me! When I almost "pulled the trigger" on a G500 upgrade a few years back, I was told that I could be electric-only without the extra alternator (I only have one!). How will I know for sure? Would Garmin give an authoritative answer? I hate to call the FAA. Can I trust my very well reputed avionics shop?

 

[thinwing]

That's correct ,the g500 doesn't control the kfc225...but I prefer to keep the altitude/rate of climb functions on the 225 itself rather than opening another window on the garmin

[carusoam]

Technical challenge...

1) The O has two batteries.

2) Newer Os have a separate E- Bus.

3) electronic screens have their own batteries.

4) how much back up are you comfortable with?

 

realistic challenge.

5) vacuum pump gets removed. 

6) second E- alternator takes it's place.

7) checking all the details will be important for this.

 

belt and suspenders approach...

8) two batteries

9) two alternators

10) two busses

11) internal batteries

12) you probably will not have enough power for the Fiki and AC systems.... but getting down to VMC safely should be pretty good.

 

Go long body!

 

PP thoughts only.  Not a mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

Edited April 5, 2017 by carusoam

[Marauder]

That is the scary part: This is actually news to me! When I almost "pulled the trigger" on a G500 upgrade a few years back, I was told that I could be electric-only without the extra alternator (I only have one!). How will I know for sure? Would Garmin give an authoritative answer? I hate to call the FAA. Can I trust my very well reputed avionics shop?
 

You don't need the dual electrical system if you install a unit that can act as a certified backup to the G500. This is true of the Aspens as well.

What you will need is a unit like an L-3 ESI-500 or with field approval, the Sandia Quattro. I'm currently installing a ESI-500 in my F. It will allow me to remove my AI/vacuum system as well as the ASI and altimeter.


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[carusoam]

Dang...

Paper work will be equally important to the technical details.

For examples of Long Bodies with updated electric panels, we have a Bravo and an O that have extensive Electric panels.

DK and Steven757 have posted some really good panel pictures...

Best regards,

[THill182]

8 minutes ago, carusoam said:

Dang...

Paper work will be equally important to the technical details.

 

Yeah; it now feels complicated. I have been working with Autopilots Central in Tulsa, and I know they have been doing probably over a hundred of installs like this since the G500 line was certified (for / in a Mooney Ovation); in fact my backup AI was specifically chosen presumably to function as a legal backup for an all-electric system.... they can get the paperwork right....

[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, Marauder said:

 

You don't need the dual electrical system if you install a unit that can act as a certified backup to the G500. This is true of the Aspens as well.

What you will need is a unit like an L-3 ESI-500 or with field approval, the Sandia Quattro. I'm currently installing a ESI-500 in my F. It will allow me to remove my AI/vacuum system as well as the ASI and altimeter.

 

Thanks for the correction, Chris.

I do have both the 2nd generator and the ESI-2000 as a certified back-up for the G500.  The 2nd generator was installed as part of FIKI TKS system.  Like all long body planes there are also two 24V batteries.   The L-3 ESI backup has its own internal battery.  Tertiary AI is another AHRS in the FS-210, displayed on the 796 and iPad  (each with its own battery, too)

If all that fails, well, it's a bad day.  

[Robert C.]

19 hours ago, carusoam said:

 

8) Seen how Big G handled the G1000 Waas issue and weren't impressed?

-a-

In all fairness to "Big G" they handled the G1000 WAAS issue just fine. The problem was/is two-fold: 1) the G1000 is on the Mooney T/C so that all updates need to be Mooney certified, and, 2) Mooney has shown very little appetite for supporting its GX customers with updates/upgrades (latest word from SnF is that they won't look at making the NXi available for legacy aircraft for another 3 years). Garmin had working W boxes and software available quite a while ago.