High FBO fees.

[Mooneymite]

 

From AIN:

NATA Challenges AOPA’s FBO Fee Claims

The National Air Transportation Association (NATA) is rejecting assertions by the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) that FBOs are unfairly profiting from excessive ramp fees and fuel pricing. In the article “AOPA Battling Excessive FBO Fees,” the organization faulted FBOs at publicly funded airports for not providing “unfettered ramp access” to general aviation users. In rebuttal, NATA insists that the basis for AOPA’s complaints is invalid. “The AOPA effort is particularly disappointing as it continues a pattern of contradictory assertions designed to alleviate industry concerns while it pursues an economic regulatory agenda,” stated NATA president Martin Hiller. “While AOPA claims to support FBOs and the free market, there is no recognition of the fact that some locations require different pricing models.” The AOPA article is based on a closed-door presentation the organization made to the FAA, requesting agency oversight of the industry. The FAA then offered the presentation to NATA for comment. “Incredibly, AOPA chose to attack the FAA for asking stakeholders to comment on its call for economic regulation of FBOs and even criticized NATA for bringing its covert eleven-month campaign to others' attention,” Hiller added.

[buddy]

Wayne, I believe Signature at JZI will waive the ramp fee with a purchase of 10 gal. Of gas from the self serve pump. I was there a few months ago in my Ovation and that's what they did for me.

[Wayne Cease]

On 4/2/2017 at 0:39 PM, Drew_Wagner said:

I just talked to the line guys when I flew home this morning and they said you can still come to LRO next weekend. You just have to schedule with them to make sure there is ramp space. This weekend was crazy with the Bridge Run and they filled up which is why they may have mistakenly told you there wasn't room. Hope you enjoy your trip. If you end up landing on 17 you have to back taxi if you don't make the middle turn because the taxi way is closed going to 35.

They only have two spots right now and won't reserve a spot.  Said to call back tomorrow before departing.     Uh, no.  I need a rental car reservation lined, which I had for LRO.  Back to CHS, but Uber in and then a rental in town.

Not a good time to redo the ramp with the Bridge Run last weekend and the Volvo Car Open tennis tournament this weekend.  Maybe there just isn't a good time.

I very much appreciate your heads-up on this issue.  They didn't mention a thing when I originally called.  

Edited April 5, 2017 by Wayne Cease

[FlyWalt]

On 3/31/2017 at 11:59 AM, Piloto said:

Most of these high price FBOs are at Class B airports. I always go to the Class C or Class D airports. Fuel at these airports is considerable lower price. When planning your trip is always advisable to check FBOs fuel prices.

José

I always go to the back woods strip, owned by one family that spends their whole life supporting that airport and GA in general. Case in point is 0A7 which is just south of KAVL.

John is the mechanic, lineman, flight instructor, and airport manager/owner. He and his family do a far better job of caring for every customer than any employee at the big FBO's.

[Tom]

On 4/2/2017 at 7:39 PM, Drew_Wagner said:

I just talked to the line guys when I flew home this morning and they said you can still come to LRO next weekend. You just have to schedule with them to make sure there is ramp space...

I don't know what the arrangements are currently at LRO, but the Charleston County Aviation Authority board meetings from 2013 indicated that the Authority was paying Atlantic $5,000 per month to operate at LRO.  This isn't unusual.  But the "pigs-get-fat-hogs-get-slaughtered" rule needs to apply in these circumstances.

https://www.iflychs.com/CCAA-Reports/Meeting-Minutes/04-25-13-Minutes-Operations-Committee.aspx?feed=69d21f19-6e95-4667-8569-61ae1cca5e29

Also, NATA published a report last week including many not even half-truths, background for which has been referenced earlier in this thread (e.g. no real competition possible in most locations).   Really...bush league obfuscation:

http://nata.aero/data/files/gia/nata formal response on state of the industry.pdf

 

 

[Drew_Wagner]

I don't know what the arrangements are currently at LRO, but the Charleston County Aviation Authority board meetings from 2013 indicated that the Authority was paying Atlantic $5,000 per month to operate at LRO.  This isn't unusual.  But the "pigs-get-fat-hogs-get-slaughtered" rule needs to apply in these circumstances.

https://www.iflychs.com/CCAA-Reports/Meeting-Minutes/04-25-13-Minutes-Operations-Committee.aspx?feed=69d21f19-6e95-4667-8569-61ae1cca5e29
Also, NATA published a report last week including many not even half-truths, background for which has been referenced earlier in this thread (e.g. no real competition possible in most locations).   Really...bush league obfuscation:
http://nata.aero/data/files/gia/nata formal response on state of the industry.pdf
 
 

The Charleston County Aviation Authority took over the airport FBO last year. Prices dropped from $7.50 to $4.50 full service over night. It has been nothing but positive. We also got a mechanic on the field. LRO is a GA gem.


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[Drew_Wagner]

They only have two spots right now and won't reserve a spot.  Said to call back tomorrow before departing.     Uh, no.  I need a rental car reservation lined, which I had for LRO.  Back to CHS, but Uber in and then a rental in town.
Not a good time to redo the ramp with the Bridge Run last weekend and the Volvo Car Open tennis tournament this weekend.  Maybe there just isn't a good time.
I very much appreciate your heads-up on this issue.  They didn't mention a thing when I originally called.  

Hate to hear that. It's been unbelievably busy the past couple of weeks. The ramp needed the overhaul bad, but I agree the first two nice flying weekends of the year that coincided with major events was not the best time to start the project!


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[Wayne Cease]

5 minutes ago, Drew_Wagner said:

The Charleston County Aviation Authority took over the airport FBO last year. Prices dropped from $7.50 to $4.50 full service over night. It has been nothing but positive. We also got a mechanic on the field. LRO is a GA gem.
 

^This is the issue with the big national FBOs.

I have no issue with "premium" FBOs.  Just like First/Business class seating or premium cars (Mercedes, BMW, etc) for those that want it it's great.  It is a problem though when premium is the only option.  That I have to "shop" with a premium FBO to use an airport my tax dollars paid for.  The premium FBOs typically have beautiful facilities, but I'm fine with a basic building, often a 50 year old building, at a local FBO.  For my needs those are just as good.  Most of them today have wifi, so I can check weather and such, so they don't even need to have computers and a weather service.  Even if they don't it's been a long time since I've been at one where I didn't get cell phone reception; that may be an issue out west in even more rural areas.

The cost at JZI is the same at CHS at Atlantic other than there is no $10 security fee at JZI; there is self-serve fuel for a little less, but the full service fuel is actually $1.02/gal higher.    At JZI?  *sigh*  I bet if the county took it over the costs would match LRO.

I've flown into LRO before, and it's great.  I was bummed I can't go there this week, well at least not a solid "yes" on the parking.  I've flown into CHS before as well, especially if we're just staying in the historic district and don't need a car.  I think the fees were lower at CHS then, or maybe it was the difference between prices for a single vs a twin (as if the Baron is really that much bigger than the SR22).  

 

[Yooper Rocketman]

19 hours ago, FlyWalt said:

I always go to the back woods strip, owned by one family that spends their whole life supporting that airport and GA in general. Case in point is 0A7 which is just south of KAVL.

John is the mechanic, lineman, flight instructor, and airport manager/owner. He and his family do a far better job of caring for every customer than any employee at the big FBO's.

I have a sister living in Asheville that is moving out west later this month.  I had hoped to stop in on a flight to Florida next week for lunch or an overnight, but looking at fuel prices (Jet-A over double that of Spartanburg, 38 miles away) and ramp fees, I'm not sure I want to depart with that much extra cash for the privilege stopping there.  Now that I'm flying turbine, I can imagine the fees will climb even more.  I looked at Henderson, but they are not even listed on Airnav as having fuel, and the reports on the airport page below are not real encouraging.  Doesn't look like they have Jet-A anyway.

http://airnav.com/airport/0A7/AEROLINA#c

Tom

[Wakeup]

I fly a fair amount into Asheville and they don't advertise but they do have self serve pump gas for about $2.00 less and it waves part of the fees.   The fees are ridiculous, but Sierra Nevada is less then a mile away.  Cheers!!!  Troy 

[Cyril Gibb]

I just came back from a trip to NYC.  Great service by Sheltair at KFRG, although no free night with fuel purchase.

However, to stay true to the topic, I found out that US customs at FRG charge $150 flat rate.  All aircraft regardless of size or  # of passengers.  No warning at all.  We can just add this to the hidden charges issue.

[aviatoreb]

7 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

I just came back from a trip to NYC.  Great service by Sheltair at KFRG, although no free night with fuel purchase.

However, to stay true to the topic, I found out that US customs at FRG charge $150 flat rate.  All aircraft regardless of size or  # of passengers.  No warning at all.  We can just add this to the hidden charges issue.

US CUSTOMS is charging that?  Now that is downright strange that they would charge high fees at one place, and no fees at other places.  What are they in the business? 

[peevee]

11 minutes ago, Cyril Gibb said:

I just came back from a trip to NYC.  Great service by Sheltair at KFRG, although no free night with fuel purchase.

However, to stay true to the topic, I found out that US customs at FRG charge $150 flat rate.  All aircraft regardless of size or  # of passengers.  No warning at all.  We can just add this to the hidden charges issue.

I feel like It's usually denoted in the afd or whatever you want to call it these days as a fee based airport. Can't remember the verbage.

[Mooneymite]

From AIN: FBO Replies To Pricing Complaint

OK3 Air, the lone aviation service provider at Utah’s Heber City Municipal Airport-Russ McDonald Field, has issued a written response to an Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) member who contacted the FBO to complain about its pricing. The facility was one of several recently highlighted by the organization over what it deemed “egregious FBO pricing,” based on feedback from AOPA members. In the letter, which was also sent to the general counsels from AOPA and NATA, as well as the Heber City attorneys, OK3 Air’s general counsel pointed out that the company’s pricing is determined by market conditions, and that Heber City is but one of eight airports within a 75-mile radius of ski enclave Park City, providing customers with several options as they weigh the perceived value versus pricing when deciding which airport to patronize. “AOPA’s argument that FBO prices are not reasonable unless they conform to the standards governing rates and charges by airport sponsors is without precedent,” the letter stated. “Grant Assurance 22 cannot be read to require that aviation services be provided at a price acceptable to the AOPA membership.” In August, AOPA, along with seven pilots, filed FAA Part 13 complaints regarding sole-provider FBOs at Illinois Waukegan National Airport, North Carolina Asheville Regional Airport and Florida Key West International Airport. http://ainalerts.com.s3.amazonaws.com/newsgen/html/20170919_18-18-59_alerts.html

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

From AIN: FBO Replies To Pricing Complaint

OK3 Air, the lone aviation service provider at Utah’s Heber City Municipal Airport-Russ McDonald Field, has issued a written response to an Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association (AOPA) member who contacted the FBO to complain about its pricing. The facility was one of several recently highlighted by the organization over what it deemed “egregious FBO pricing,” based on feedback from AOPA members. In the letter, which was also sent to the general counsels from AOPA and NATA, as well as the Heber City attorneys, OK3 Air’s general counsel pointed out that the company’s pricing is determined by market conditions, and that Heber City is but one of eight airports within a 75-mile radius of ski enclave Park City, providing customers with several options as they weigh the perceived value versus pricing when deciding which airport to patronize. “AOPA’s argument that FBO prices are not reasonable unless they conform to the standards governing rates and charges by airport sponsors is without precedent,” the letter stated. “Grant Assurance 22 cannot be read to require that aviation services be provided at a price acceptable to the AOPA membership.” In August, AOPA, along with seven pilots, filed FAA Part 13 complaints regarding sole-provider FBOs at Illinois Waukegan National Airport, North Carolina Asheville Regional Airport and Florida Key West International Airport. http://ainalerts.com.s3.amazonaws.com/newsgen/html/20170919_18-18-59_alerts.html

I wonder how much of this is approaching anti-competitive status. When an airport outsources to a sole vendor and that vendor gouges, does that constitute an anti-competitive environment, especially if competition is locked out?

[RobertGary1]

4 minutes ago, Marauder said:

I wonder how much of this is approaching anti-competitive status. When an airport outsources to a sole vendor and that vendor gouges, does that constitute an anti-competitive environment, especially if competition is locked out?

I agree. The only time that we need to regulate the prices is if the govt restricts the vendors. 

I can't believe some pilots don't call ahead and then are surprised by ramp fees. Personally I'll often pay for the bigger jet center fees because my wife has no particular love of aviation and having the rental car brought out to the plane and getting on our way is worth the money. 

-Robert

[Mooneymite]

8 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

 Personally I'll often pay for the bigger jet center fees.....

-Robert

And that is certainly your choice.  Unfortunately, at Heber City, there is no choice....other than flying into a Salt Lake City location and renting a car.

[jrwilson]

21 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

And that is certainly your choice.  Unfortunately, at Heber City, there is no choice....other than flying into a Salt Lake City location and renting a car.

That is what I did when going to Park City.  Heber was so pricey and I needed a car anyway, so I flew into an airport near Salt Lake city, which was much cheaper.

[Mooneymite]

1 minute ago, jrwilson said:

That is what I did when going to Park City.  Heber was so pricey and I needed a car anyway, so I flew into an airport near Salt Lake city, which was much cheaper.

I hope you took the time to put that fact on Airnav.com and/or wrote that to the FBO.

 

[N201MKTurbo]

It is funny how the FBO at Heber speaks like they own the airport.

[peevee]

30 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

And that is certainly your choice.  Unfortunately, at Heber City, there is no choice....other than flying into a Salt Lake City location and renting a car.

Spanish fork 

 

I was at heber this summer, their fees are ridiculous and they weren't a year ago. 6.50 a gallon and 25 bucks a night to park is what I remember.

[Wayne Cease]

That is what I did when going to Park City.  Heber was so pricey and I needed a car anyway, so I flew into an airport near Salt Lake city, which was much cheaper.

Ok, that's horrible. Class B airports are pricey.



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[peevee]

33 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

I hope you took the time to put that fact on Airnav.com and/or wrote that to the FBO.

 

Ok3 has airnav comments turned off

[peevee]

18 minutes ago, Wayne Cease said:

Ok, that's horrible. Class B airports are pricey.



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He said near salt lake, not slc. Probably south valley. U42

[jrwilson]

38 minutes ago, peevee said:

He said near salt lake, not slc. Probably south valley. U42

Yep, south valley