Factory Reman or Field Overhaul by Engine Specialists

[231LV]

Well, since I got such a great response to my ADS-B inquiries, I thought I would throw this one out for thoughts, as well... My M20k has the original TSIO-360-GB engine with a little over 1800 hours. I have been flying it the past 13 years and the previous owner also "babied" the engine but owners prior...who knows?? The engine has been getting regular oil analysis at every 25 hour change with "good" results. It uses a quart every 9-10 hours. It is leaking oil around the push rod tube seals and a bit of seepage at the bases of a couple of cylinders which makes a bit of a mess on the belly. It is Gami'd and I run it LOP and do not exceed 380 degrees on the hottest jug. It has a fixed waste gate and intercooler but the engine has lost critical altitude (running at full throttle) from around 22,000 ft to 17,000 ft. I realize there are a couple schools of thought regarding engines and TBO but I have decided that since it is the original hot-running GB and seeping oil, I want to replace it and do the ADS-B at the same time. Now the question(s) I want to throw out there are, first, Factory Reman or Field Overhaul done by an Engine Specialist like Ly-Con, Western Skyways, Mattituk, etc. The reason I put this out is the price difference between the two is close to $11k. The second question I have is if Field Overhaul, which engine shop carries the top recommendations? Thoughts??

[Mooneymite]

When faced with this situation for my O-360, I found that "field overhaul" means different things to different shops.  What did/did not get replaced by the various shops was so confusing, that I ended up going with a factory reman where it was rather cut and dried.

In many cases, by the time the field overhaul replaced everything that came with a reman, the field overhaul was more.

[231LV]

14 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

When faced with this situation for my O-360, I found that "field overhaul" means different things to different shops.  What did/did not get replaced by the various shops was so confusing, that I ended up going with a factory reman where it was rather cut and dried.

In many cases, by the time the field overhaul replaced everything that came with a reman, the field overhaul was more.

The written quote I received from Western Skyways pretty much spells out everything they include which is what I get with the factory reman

[kortopates]

The more important consideration is your options and cost to get to the LB engine. If you go factory reman, it will be an improved LB not a GB. If you go field overhaul you'll be paying the increased cost to upgrade to LB which requires a new induction system which you were paying new cost over 4K, but I expect a big engine shop could do better. But I suggest you ask about the specifics since I only see mention of the original GB.

Your engine has not lost critical altitude at 17K. That's the correct critical altitude for the fixed waste gate engines. A Merlyn would improve it, (i forget by how much) but not an intercooler. If it was not making its expected critical altitude it would only need a new turbo, not a new engine to fix.

Push rod gaskets are inexpensive to replace but leakage at the base of the cylinder(s) are not. 

Nothing wrong with field overhauls; especially done by specialist like Western Skyways. But I suspect the 11K difference will shrink considerably when you factor upgrading a GB to the current LB engine being used.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by kortopates

[peevee]

6 minutes ago, kortopates said:

especially done by specialist like Western Skyways.

around denver anyway, their reputation isn't too good anymore.

[231LV]

3 minutes ago, kortopates said:

The more important consideration is your options and cost to get to the LB engine. If you go factory reman, it will be an improved LB not a GB. If you go field overhaul you'll be paying the increased cost to upgrade to LB which requires a new induction system which you were paying new cost over 4K, but I expect a big engine shop could do better. But I suggest you ask about the specifics since I only see mention of the original GB.

Your engine has not lost critical altitude at 17K. That's the correct critical altitude for the fixed waste gate engines. A Merlyn would improve it, (i forget by how much) but not an intercooler. If it was not making its expected critical altitude it would only need a new turbo, not a new engine to fix.

Push rod gaskets are inexpensive to replace but leakage at the base of the cylinder(s) are not. 

Nothing wrong with field overhauls; especially done by specialist like Western Skyways. But I suspect the 11K difference will shrink considerably when you factor upgrading a GB to the current LB engine being used.  

The written quote is for the LB upgrade and includes the turbo overhaul and fixed wastegate. There was a time when full throttle got me to 22k ft...not anymore...my mechanic tells me Field Overhauls with big engine rebuilders is a "hit and miss" proposition, in his opinion.

[tony]

Do you cut open your oil filters and inspect for metal?  If you're not making metal (I assume you're not if you're getting good oil analysis), I vote to leave it alone.  

Edited March 27, 2017 by tony

[Godfather]

I personally feel that a top name engine overhaul shop is as good as a factory reman. However, the process takes longer and might not look as good to the average aircraft buyer. 

[kortopates]

37 minutes ago, 231LV said:

The written quote is for the LB upgrade and includes the turbo overhaul and fixed wastegate. There was a time when full throttle got me to 22k ft...not anymore...my mechanic tells me Field Overhauls with big engine rebuilders is a "hit and miss" proposition, in his opinion.

Very good on  the LB upgrade.

Critical altitude is the altitude at which you can't make 100% power. i.e. redine MAP and RPM. You probably meant to use Service ceiling which is the altitude where climb rate drops to 100 FPM and of course is significantly higher than critical altitude. (Although regardless of your aircraft's true service ceiling, when above 18K the TCDS has a certified maximum operating altitude which limits our max altitude regardless; hence your 24,000 limit). Your issue probably is a reduced critical altitude from a worn turbo since the cylinders will still make rated HP even when their compression drops below airworthy standards.

More engines are rebuilt by engine re-builders than the factory. But no matter where you go, those that do a large business will have people that were not entirely satisfied including the OEM. A big part of the customer satisfaction results are based on how the re-builder or factory supports their products warranty claims. 

If your saving 11K to go with the exact same level of new and rebuilt/OH parts, and similar warranty, most are going to go with the re-builder. However, first just the words Overhauled isn't a complete definition of what you are getting. Their is overhauled to service limits and overhauled to New limits be sure to ask when its not spelled out; since a quality engine rebuild will be done to new limits or new parts throughout.  

The factory reman is worth a premium until the mid-time wrt to Blue book valuations, but its a wash after mid-time.  

[231LV]

Thanks guys! I have also asked for a quote from Ly-Con which should be delivered tomorrow but I specified over the phone that I want the engine to new service limits and an LB upgrade with turbo and fixed waste gate overhauls plus new, nitrided Continental Cylinders....the guy gave me a ballpark "guesstimate" with the caveat that the actual quote guy will send me a written but its in the same range as Western Skyways....about $10 to $11k savings over a factory reman. This might get me the Lynx/Aspen ADS-B solution and leave some for a Merlyn!!

[flyer7324]

My advice. Re-torque the affected bolts and continue flying. Appears you have a good engine.


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[flyer7324]

And of course have the pushrod gaskets replaced. No biggie


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[231LV]

Yea....I wrestled with this one quite awhile. My plan was always to replace when a major problem popped up. Of course, a major problem could be a MAJOR problem depending upon when and where it occurs. I recently experienced a leaking fuel line while enroute over some very inhospitable terrain. Upon landing, the entire nose gear door was stained blue. Close call and there was no way to know it was leaking until it started leaking. That got me to thinking that this will likely be the last engine I replace so unless the replacement is a dud, I think I will just sit back and enjoy a new firewall forward airplane.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, 231LV said:

Yea....I wrestled with this one quite awhile. My plan was always to replace when a major problem popped up. Of course, a major problem could be a MAJOR problem depending upon when and where it occurs. I recently experienced a leaking fuel line while enroute over some very inhospitable terrain. Upon landing, the entire nose gear door was stained blue. Close call and there was no way to know it was leaking until it started leaking. That got me to thinking that this will likely be the last engine I replace so unless the replacement is a dud, I think I will just sit back and enjoy a new firewall forward airplane.

I think the next 300 - 500 hours are going to be critical regardless of what you do. Either keep flying with your fingers crossed, or get a new engine and keep your fingers crossed you can get to 500 hours without any problems.

Infant mortality is a thing with engines.

[Yooper Rocketman]

I toured the Continental Factory in Mobile AL last fall while attending the Lancair Owners and Builders Organization (LOBO) Convention.  I noted to several employees during the tour about my current Mooney engine, the TSIO520NB, being over 400 hours past TBO and without exception every one of them told me to keep running it!   I ran 20% past TBO on my last Mooney as well, an F model with an IO360A1A.  I DID replace it with a factory Reman.

Not sure what I will do with the Rocket once the Lancair is painted?  A recent article in AOPA suggests it's better to buy a plane with the engine timed out than with a fresh overhaul.  You're not paying for a low time engine you have no certainty of getting all your money back on and you, as the new owner, have full control over the overhaul.

Tom

[Godfather]

9 hours ago, 231LV said:

Yea....I wrestled with this one quite awhile. My plan was always to replace when a major problem popped up. Of course, a major problem could be a MAJOR problem depending upon when and where it occurs. I recently experienced a leaking fuel line while enroute over some very inhospitable terrain. Upon landing, the entire nose gear door was stained blue. Close call and there was no way to know it was leaking until it started leaking. That got me to thinking that this will likely be the last engine I replace so unless the replacement is a dud, I think I will just sit back and enjoy a new firewall forward airplane.

I think many people forget that many items can fail due to age and flight time. The core of the engine might be working fine but many of the accessories need a refresh. Does not make a lot of sense to drop 3-5 k updating a couple cylinders, mags, wires, turbo, starter adapter, etc if they are long in tooth as most top overhaulers will not give you a credit for these parts. 

8 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

I think the next 300 - 500 hours are going to be critical regardless of what you do. Either keep flying with your fingers crossed, or get a new engine and keep your fingers crossed you can get to 500 hours without any problems.

Infant mortality is a thing with engines.

I agree but also believe an overhauled alternator will have a higher dispatch rate than one with 1600 hrs...similar things can be said for multiple components. 

9 minutes ago, Yooper Rocketman said:

I toured the Continental Factory in Mobile AL last fall while attending the Lancair Owners and Builders Organization (LOBO) Convention.  I noted to several employees during the tour about my current Mooney engine, the TSIO520NB, being over 400 hours past TBO and without exception every one of them told me to keep running it!   I ran 20% past TBO on my last Mooney as well, an F model with an IO360A1A.  I DID replace it with a factory Reman.

Not sure what I will do with the Rocket once the Lancair is painted?  A recent article in AOPA suggests it's better to buy a plane with the engine timed out than with a fresh overhaul.  You're not paying for a low time engine you have no certainty of getting all your money back on and you, as the new owner, have full control over the overhaul.

Tom

Completely agree but I feel many people underestimate how much a good overhaul will cost these days...

[Mooneymite]

I think the "on condition" criterion of part 91 operations is a great deal.  I ran my previous engine 20% beyond TBO with nary a problem.  However, nothing lasts forever and eventually you may get to the point where the engine, not you, determines when/where the replacement will take place.

My idea of a nightmare would be an unplanned engine replacement 1000 miles from home.

[Godfather]

8 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

My idea of a nightmare would be an unplanned engine replacement 1000 miles from home.

I agree...had a starter adapter go bad 1k miles from home on my way to the Cayman Islands. I lost a few days of the vacation fixing the problem but I wonder how much fun it would have been to get it fixed on the island. 

[231LV]

my thoughts, exactly! The money is there in the reserve...I'm not getting any younger (and neither is my engine) so I figure I will take my chances on infant mortality over old age....

[DonMuncy]

I don't agree that overhaul or replacement is necessary or wise due to time or hours. I'm sure that somewhere a crankshaft has broken on a high time engine, but it is far more likely that failures due to age are not of a catastrophic nature. Much more likely that you would have a decrease in power/performance or increase in oil consumption. These are things that will not require repair instantly. I admit that some accessory failure may strand you, but I do not think that an OH for the purpose of getting overhauled accessories makes too much sense.

Mike Busch has done some research on numbers and percentages of failure due to infant mortality and engine age. His opinion (and I agree) is that the best way is to be careful of oil filter inspection, borescope and oil analysis and keep flying the engine until some wear indicators tell you it is overhaul time. This coming from a guy who did an overhaul on a relatively high time engine last year after a prop strike while taxiing and the insurance company subsidized the OH.

[Jim F]

Hi 231LV,

I have the same delema on my 231 at 1740 hours. My concerns are hoses, turbo, accessories, and cylinders . The lower end of the TSIO-360 is bullit proof.  If the boutique overhaulers uses a TCM fuel system I think you get the LB throttle body but verify that.  In my past I have done a lot of work with boutique engines and the balancing and porting really makes a huge difference. For this reason I will not be going with a factory reman.  I am planning on Ly-con, Victors, or Eagle engines.

Jim F

[231LV]

Ly-Con came back with a quote of $40k which is all engine/turbo parts (but not accessories) including port match and flow balance the cylinders....to "service new standards" for an LB engine with new factory jugs. I think I will get one more quote from Victors and then line them up against the factory reman cost of about $47k. Of course, I still have to add hoses and a motor mount overhaul plus R&R but the boutique engine rebuilder option is looking better and better..

[FBCK]

Do consider putting the Merlyn wastgate on it as well, it does help with the critical altitude, brings it up from 14000 feet to 21000 feet.  Also helps to keep the engine and turbo cooler by lowering turbo speeds when not necessary to run the turbo at full speeds. ( I think its about 4K), a bought one a few years back.

[jclemens]

We have done two TSIO-360 overhauls in the last 6 months, both on 231's.  All our engines are built to new limits.  We used new Cylinders.  I believe each of them came in right around $38K.  Whomever you go with, balancing is the key to a smooth running TSIO-360 for sure.

[flyer7324]

Now u know why I fly a C with an O 360. 40k? Ouchie!!!


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