PIREPs and thoughts on N242HM

[Vance Harral]

3 hours ago, M20Doc said:

That looks like an interesting way to raise a Mooney.

Yeah, I'm really not sure what's going on there or how the airplane was jacked up in that photo.  It's from before we bought the airplane, part of a collection of photos the prior owner gave us.  Just happened to be a good shot of the inspection panels.

[Vance Harral]

14 minutes ago, Ben E. said:

1- what do you think the stain is on the top left of the photo

2 - is that rust or grease on the landing gear

3- what do you think the discoloration is?

4 - rust or grease?

5 - what is the discoloration around the screw heads?

6 - does the yellow streak left of and splotch right of the intercom jacks look like something serious?

7 - i can't tell if this is the same speed brake as before, but the same thing as before

8 - there are a few spots if you look closely.  corrosion or nicks?

9 - rust, grease, or dirt?

10 - why do you think there is globs of stuff on the trailing edge of the rudder?

11 - why would the rivets be sunken in that deep?

OK, I'll play, but keep in mind I'm just an amateur, not an A&P.

1.  Too blurry to be sure.  The panel it's near is a fuel tank access panel, which makes me suspect it's a fuel stain.  But it would be more common to see that on a screw, or the seam of the panel.  That stain is just in the middle of nowhere, so a bit odd.

2. Looks like rust, at least in some places.  Light surface corrosion on gear trusses is not a show stopper.  When I point out things like this to my long-trusted mechanic, he tends to say things like, "Yeah, that might rust through in another 50 years or so...."

3. Service manual calls for spraying lubricant on all hinges every 100 hours (typically every annual).  As the lubricant dries, discolors, and gathers dirt over the years, it tends to stain the hinges and nearby sheet metal a bit.  My airplane has the same discoloration on and around hinges.  Not a show stopper.

4. I'm guessing that's the connecting rod back on the elevator or rudder, little hard to tell from the photo.  If so, there are no grease fittings back there, so doubt it's grease.  Might be dried lubricant, might be rust.  If the latter, again, light surface corrosion isn't a show stopper.

5. Those look like blind rivets, not screws.  They appear to be "working" a little, i.e. loosening up.  Working rivets can be drilled out and replaced, but it of course cosmetically messes up the paint.  My mechanic doesn't get worked  up about the occasional smoking rivet here and there, but different people have different opinions.

6. Worst case scenario would be water and rust behind the panel, caused by lack of attention to Mooney Service Bulletin M20-208B.  Or it could just be a stain from a backseat passenger spilling food or a drink.  Only way to tell is to perform an M20-208B inspection, but you should be doing that as part of the pre-buy anyway, regardless of whether you see stains or not.

7. Again, looks like blind rivets "working" a little.  Not really familiar with speed brakes or how much of a concern this is.

8. Just looks like paint nicks to me.

9. Might be some rust under the bolt in the lower left of the photo.  But most of what you're seeing there appears to me to be dried lubricant and dirt, as discussed above.

10. Looks like touch-up paint to me.  The trailing edges of control surfaces tend to get paint chips.  Not sure why, maybe vibration, lack of bonding at the corner, or both.  Sometimes people dab on a little touch-up paint, which usually looks awful.

11. Looks normal to me.  Lap joints around compound curves fastened with rivets can buckle a little, even when factory new.

Overall, while I appreciate your meticulousness, I'm a little concerned you're missing the forest for the trees.  Little specks of rust on replaceable components you can see with a casual glance, or the occasional smoking rivet, are not what cause nightmare scenarios.  The places you want to be looking for nightmare corrosion are on the main wing spar and aft stub spar, the steel roll cage structure under the interior panels, and inside the engine.

[carusoam]

Prices have returned to normal pre 2008 level according to the ad.

Vance and the others have given a lot of detail about imperfections.   There are a few in each photo.

It is a good idea to go see the plane in person at this point.  You want to know how you are going to take care of each of these blemishes when you get the plane home.

These might not be something you can live with for a while, and take time to figure out...

Expect to spend a few bucks on a PPI to protect your wallet.

Fancy paint, OH'd engine and fancy panel are kind of like lipstick.  You want to continue looking closer at all the issues.

If you are not mechanically inclined, bring your mechanic along.

That is a lot of dough riding on a handful of internet photos...

Have you read the logs yet?

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 4, 2017 by carusoam

[Hank]

Words of truth from the sleepless one . . . But I'm not aware of the full price recovery happening. Maybe I've not kept up on airplane values the last few years, having bought mine in 2007.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Hank

[Ben E.]

Prices have returned to normal pre 2008 level according to the ad.
Vance and the others have given a lot of detail about imperfections.   There are a few in each photo.
It is a good idea to go see the plane in person at this point.  You want to know how you are going to take care of each of these blemishes when you get the plane home.
These might not be something you can live with for a while, and take time to figure out...
Expect to spend a few bucks on a PPI to protect your wallet.
Fancy paint, OH'd engine and fancy panel are kind of like lipstick.  You want to continue looking closer at all the issues.
If you are not mechanically inclined, bring your mechanic along.
That is a lot of dough riding on a handful of internet photos...
Have you read the logs yet?
Best regards,
-a-

I read the logs. They look great. No mention of corrosion. Better than the other 10+ sets of logs I've read. Regarding values, are you saying you think it's overpriced?

[carusoam]

That is the full price I saw of Nice Js in 2007 prior to the market going on hold in 2008.

only you will know what overpriced is.  There are few M20Js with so few hours on them, OH'd engines, and Aspens...

Coming up with comparisons to determine a good market price will be challenging.

I use these guys as a basis for comparison....   http://www.allamericanaircraft.com/default.htm

What I am saying is those blemishes need to be understood better before taking her home.

What is your plan for a pre-purchase inspection?

When using an MSC to do a PPI, you can have them review the stuff you know first.  Before committing to a full PPI...  my first plane purchase got rejected within five minutes of the mechanic looking at it.  The plane had a history of hard landings that were pretty obvious to the mechanic.

When paying a full price for the plane, a full PPI makes a lot of sense.  Getting a discounted PPI that misses a big hidden issue won't make any sense.

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 4, 2017 by carusoam

[ArtVandelay]

Some of what you see may be corrosion X treatment seeping through.

[jetdriven]

The skinny uneven stripes and filliform corrosion all over, and rusty steel hardware makes me think of one thing, a Crider Mena Arkansas paint job.  If so, plan on repainting it in a few years 

Edited March 4, 2017 by jetdriven

[Ben E.]

The skinny uneven stripes and filliform corrosion all over, and rusty steel hardware makes me think of one thing, a Crider Mena Arkansas paint job.  If so, plan on repainting it in a few years 

The paint job was done by Hawk Aircraft Painting. Are you seeing even more filiform corrosion beyond that on the access panel photo I originally posted?


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[jetdriven]

No, just the one photo of the underside of the wing. But now that you know what it looks like, check carefully all over for it. It ruins a paint job 

[Ben E.]

No, just the one photo of the underside of the wing. But now that you know what it looks like, check carefully all over for it. It ruins a paint job 

Phew! Ok I'm going to look over this bird with a fine toothed comb. Thanks


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[jetdriven]

Hawk does good work. The stripe layout reminded me strongly of what I saw in Mena. Check it carefully for corrosion, however. 

[PTK]

There's enough in those pictures to indicate a sloppy paint job and not paying attention to detail. The giveaway for me is the one of the speedbrake. Why were the screws painted over and not changed to ss with protective washers? When you have to take the speed brakes out to service them you'll get paint chipping around the screws. And that goes for all inspection panels. Why are the brakes themselves discolored? Where else did they cut corners? I think this thing was painted on a budget with intentions of flipping it. Personally I wouldn't pay top dollar only to have it repainted again, if I'd even buy it at all. If you do end up buying it be prepared to have it repainted in short order. I would adjust the cost of a proper paintjob accordingly. 

This is what it should look like...

[Marauder]

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[jetdriven]

I agree about the speed brake screws but every other thing was taken off the  plane to repaint it. Including the data plate. I think hawk does a better job than most paint shops in that regard. Many of them don't even take the control surfaces off. 

[Raptor05121]

My plane has a little corrosion around places like you have pointed out, but mines a 63 and was painted in 2001. So kinda expected for my old bird and paint, probably not so much for a J that new and paint much newer.

Open it up more, and haggle him down with the filiform corrosion. Looks like a nice plane.

[Ben E.]

Hi Guys:

So I got to see N242HM in person today and take a flight.  The good news is the black stuff coming out of the rivets under the wing wipes right off, so not filiform corrosion.  Regarding the speed brakes and the screws around them--they didn't paint over the screws.  That's some sort of sealant.  I was able to scrap it off, revealing white paint.

The biggest concern I have is that stuff on the edge of the rudder was not a paint touch up, it was an attempt to fix hanger rash.  It looks like the plane hit something when it was being put into the hanger.  I haven't found anything in the log books about this.  How big of an issue do you think that is and how much would it cost to fix it to look undamaged?  Also there are a few hairline cracks in the cowl cover that are a couple inches long.  

Regarding the wing spar, I have attached photos of that and you can see a video of it along with all my pics, videos, and the owner's pics.  There some gunk in there, kind of reddish, and it sticks up over the surface of the spar.  I was able to pick some of it off, revealing white paint underneath (see the video), but I don't know if that means that none of the other stuff is corrosion.  I popped open the tail access panel and it looked real clean.  I also opened an access panel under the left wing next to a servo.  It looked good.  I for some dumb reason did not think to open the engine cowling.  I have a pic or two in the Dropbox I tried to take through the oil access lid.  

If you guys tell me that's not corrosion on the spar, and I can negotiate a good price then I will get a proper PPI and do it as a full annual.

Any thoughts and wisdom you can impart on me would be much appreciated.

Spar video:  https://www.dropbox.com/s/qm96ayaxmo85ti0/Video Mar 05%2C 2 12 51 PM.mov?dl=0

All files: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/1esphzowq12maxf/AACZXioofA9WlMJ6jS8jMMn5a?dl=0

- Ben

[LANCECASPER]

I would ask if there was an insurance claim when the hangar rash occurred. It looks like to repair that properly, to like new condition, is not insignificant.

[jetdriven]

You'll have to replace the rudder to make that go away. I'd guess 2300$ got a new one, 1k for a used one and another 500$ for paint and install. Paint is easy to match. Let joe at Hawk do it. Looking up paint codes and ordering paint won't work. 

[Shadrach]

On March 3, 2017 at 9:07 PM, M20Doc said:

That looks like an interesting way to raise a Mooney.

Clarence

Agreed. Indeed there's a single Jack point per wing. Is it generally acceptable to jack the plane using the main gear then insert a jack stand at the jack point?

[carusoam]

Typical method of fixing hangar rash on control surfaces is reskinning the sheet metal or replacing the whole part.

Ignoring it doesn't work very well because control surface flutter testing is done with proper parts and balanced in a certain way.  This part is no longer a part that is identical to the ones that were tested when the plane was originally AW tested...

A long way of saying that won't pass a proper PPI as it is most likely a technical AW issue.  It would need to be allowed in accordance with the maintenance manual...

Oxidized aluminum will usually show itself as a white dusty like material.

oxidized steel parts show a typical rust color.  Looking in the front of the cowl, you might be seeing some light examples of both...

These are the reasons you may want to work closely with your PPI inspection guys...

Best regards,

-a-

Edited March 6, 2017 by carusoam