Low Time Mooney Pilots, What is your Crosswind Comfort?

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Andy95W said:

 

Great points, I will give this a try for sure.  

My next problem is that my available landing distance is less than 2200 feet, and doing short final with no flaps and a few knots extra speed will be sporting... and probably a little scary.  But I am glad to hear the differing points of view.

2200 feet in a long body airplane like mine with a strong crosswind is basically a non starter.  You just can't do it successfully--too much speed is necessary.  The C model is different.  That model can be landed as short as a Cessna 150.

[M016576]

15 hours ago, Shadrach said:

For sure full flaps provides a bit of drag, though not a lot compared to other light singles I have flown. Moreover, the full flap stall speed listed is not in ground effect.  Full flaps at 1.2Vso over the threshold and it's going to continue to float or you're going to "fly it on".  In very strong winds, I prefer to go faster with a higher stall speed. I feel the transition from flying to rolling is less prolonged.  Also, I personally dislike the "raise flaps in the flare" technique that some advocate, though I suppose it can be done smoothly; I think it breeds bad habits.

Full flaps provide A good amount of drag in the mooney..... but you have to be on the back side... or at least at the top... of the L/Dmax curve.  It takes a while to bleed airspeed to achieve that "stabilized" condition vs... say... a 172; which is why I hear from time to time "flaps just change your attitude- they seem relatively ineffective in a mooney, etc, etc.".

The challenge, as you pointed out- is when you enter ground effect- if you are even 1-2 knots fast, those flaps will again push you to a region of more lift than drag.  You almost need to start flaring as you enter ground effect to avoid floating.   

Personally, during VFR ops, I configure with full flaps on downwind, and stabilize the aircraft prior to turning base- but that's a technique I learned in the navy long ago.  That seems to help me, but my stall margin is tighter than 1.2 in the turns... so no "wrapping it up"

In my experience,  if you are even 5-10kts on the front side of L/Dmax in a mooney with full flaps, expect a 1000' extra or LONGER rollout than whatever your published numbers are.  That band at the top of the curve is very tight with full flaps in this aircraft, and the elevator (at least in the J), is pretty easy to over control due to stick forces in that speed regime and trim angle.  It requires practice, and training.

i opt for the "wing-down, top rudder" method to maintain centerline- near the overrun I transition to crab-kick out.  20kts sustained, direct crosswind component and Gust factors over 5-7kts on top of that can make life uncomfortable.  You're pretty close to the end of the rudder throw there... which leaves you with little rudder to counter the gusts if need be.  A major worry of mine is side-loading at touch down- so timing the kickout is important.  And of course, once you're on the ground taxiing- apply the flight controls correctly in the wind

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, M016576 said:

Full flaps provide A good amount of drag in the mooney..... but you have to be on the back side... or at least at the top... of the L/Dmax curve.  It takes a while to bleed airspeed to achieve that "stabilized" condition vs... say... a 172; which is why I hear from time to time "flaps just change your attitude- they seem relatively ineffective in a mooney, etc, etc.".

The challenge, as you pointed out- is when you enter ground effect- if you are even 1-2 knots fast, those flaps will again push you to a region of more lift than drag.  You almost need to start flaring as you enter ground effect to avoid floating.   

Personally, during VFR ops, I configure with full flaps on downwind, and stabilize the aircraft prior to turning base- but that's a technique I learned in the navy long ago.  That seems to help me, but my stall margin is tighter than 1.2 in the turns... so no "wrapping it up"

In my experience,  if you are even 5-10kts on the front side of L/Dmax in a mooney with full flaps, expect a 1000' extra or LONGER rollout than whatever your published numbers are.  That band at the top of the curve is very tight with full flaps in this aircraft, and the elevator (at least in the J), is pretty easy to over control due to stick forces in that speed regime and trim angle.  It requires practice, and training.

i opt for the "wing-down, top rudder" method to maintain centerline- near the overrun I transition to crab-kick out.  20kts sustained, direct crosswind component and Gust factors over 5-7kts on top of that can make life uncomfortable.  You're pretty close to the end of the rudder throw there... which leaves you with little rudder to counter the gusts if need be.  A major worry of mine is side-loading at touch down- so timing the kickout is important.  And of course, once you're on the ground taxiing- apply the flight controls correctly in the wind

We have differing techniques but certainly worthy of discussion.

Flaps and drag. What's Vfe in the missile? On the vintage birds it's 100MIAS. On higher serial numbered birds you allowed take off flaps at 120mias. I would submit to you that nearly all flap operations in a vintage bird are conducted the back side of the L/DMax curve.  When compared to say brand B, C (especially) or P product, I don't think the flaps provide the same amount of drag. Drop to first flap position in a 172 without a pitch adjustment you will see the deceleration on the ASI. The Mooney will nose down slightly with very little speed change. by the time both birds have everything hanging out the difference is significant. 

I add flaps as I necessary on approach. Typically one pump when the gear drop and as desired moving forward. Pattern speed also as needed but no more than 1.2Vso by short final (1.1 for short fields). 

I track the runway with a crab (though I will slip as well if the mood strikes me) until reaching the threshold where I transition to a slip. I had a bad experience in a low level windshear that scrared me a bit so I prefer coordinated flight to the threshold.

I can have my bird down and stopped in 1200' and I can also land in direct X winds >25kts. I've never tried to do both at the same time and don't envision a scenario where I'll have to.

[75_M20F]

I land with the speedbrakes extended when it's windy. There is little to no floating when you pull the power off, it works quite well.....

My F came with speedbrakes when I bought it.....

 

[donkaye]

34 minutes ago, Mooney_Mike said:

I land with the speedbrakes extended when it's windy. There is little to no floating when you pull the power off, it works quite well.....

My F came with speedbrakes when I bought it.....

 

If the speed brakes are "popped" AFTER touchdown no problem.  I do that all the time.  But, if they are extended BEFORE touch down you could be in for some trouble, as I found out when I tested that scenario in a strong wind with gusty conditions and up and down drafts.  I was going in on Runway 26 at Tracy California on such a day.  There is a big ditch to fly over just before touch down.  Flying over the ditch I flew into a huge downdraft.  I applied full power.  At a given power setting speed brakes add another 200 ft/min to the descent rate.  Even with the power of the Bravo, safety demanded immediate speed brake retraction. I don't recommend using speed brakes on approach other than short usage for slope management if absolutely necessary.  Certainly not continuous usage.

[StevenL757]

On 3/1/2017 at 9:52 AM, Andy95W said:

StevenL757:  "A golden rule when choosing to fly in winds like what's being described...from my instructor, an FAA inspector/manager, formerly a captain at Eastern..."when the wind comes up, the flaps come up".

Andy95W:  "Yes, a lot of us were taught this.  But why?  I always adhered to this guidance as well until I acquired more experience and ratings.  I'm curious to hear the rationale behind this "golden rule".

(coming back to this after travelling all week).

Let me see if I can provide more context.  One of the safest tactics I use is keeping stability in mind when transitioning from the approach phase into ground effect.  This means maintaining maximum control...specifically, avoiding geometric loss of controllability and maintaining proper aileron and rudder efficiency.  This helps reduce drift and ultimately prevent a runway excursion.  Remember, our gear was certified to take front loads, not side loads.

Practicing partial and no-flap landings is (along with slow flight...anyone can fly these things fast) something I do quite frequently - in and out of high winds and crosswinds - and ultimately will help your proficiency in those situations.  As others have said though, there's no better insurance policy than knowing when to tell yourself the winds are too high, and to either pack it in, go somewhere else, or fly another time.

[M016576]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

We have differing techniques but certainly worthy of discussion.

Flaps and drag. What's Vfe in the missile? On the vintage birds it's 100MIAS. On higher serial numbered birds you allowed take off flaps at 120mias. I would submit to you that nearly all flap operations in a vintage bird are conducted the back side of the L/DMax curve.  When compared to say brand B, C (especially) or P product, I don't think the flaps provide the same amount of drag. Drop to first flap position in a 172 without a pitch adjustment you will see the deceleration on the ASI. The Mooney will nose down slightly with very little speed change. by the time both birds have everything hanging out the difference is significant. 

I add flaps as I necessary on approach. Typically one pump when the gear drop and as desired moving forward. Pattern speed also as needed but no more than 1.2Vso by short final (1.1 for short fields). 

I track the runway with a crab (though I will slip as well if the mood strikes me) until reaching the threshold where I transition to a slip. I had a bad experience in a low level windshear that scrared me a bit so I prefer coordinated flight to the threshold.

I can have my bird down and stopped in 1200' and I can also land in direct X winds >25kts. I've never tried to do both at the same time and don't envision a scenario where I'll have to.

115 KIAS Vfe on the missile

i think you're still pretty far forward of the top of the L/Dmax curve at 100MIAS.  You're at about 1.5ish x Vso... it may feel slow because the control force is reduced IRT faster speeds, and the plane's responsiveness dies off as you get slower, but the aircraft is still at a "low" or "fast" angle of attack.  I haven't seen the L/Dmax chart for the mooney wing, but I'm willing to bet the peak is very small on the X axis and the slope is fairly drastic IRT a turbulent flow type wing (that's just my personal assessment based on flight performance in a stock J and the missile).

the nose forward moment from extending flaps is a function of shift in the Cl in relation to Cg... that exaserbates the "issue" as extending flaps incurs an immediate reduction in angle of attack, which makes it "feel" like you aren't slowing down unless you counter that force.... then stabilize the aircraft.

I don't know this for sure, but I bet Don Kaye does a pretty good slow flight demonstration and exercise due to his experience in mooneys as an instructor: the handling characteristics of a mooney below 90 knots are somewhat unique compared to brand P, B and C... in part due to the laminar flow wing, and in part due to the control surface forces.

 

Edit:  i should throw out there that I have not seen any of the performance charts for the mooney wing, I've never flown a pre-J model, and my test experience is ... well.. let's just say it's vintage these days!

edit 2:  from the ATP practical: 1st half flaps = more lift than drag... second half= more drag than lift.  Waaaaasyyyyy oversimplification, but for some reason this neuron fired in my mind just now.

Edited March 3, 2017 by M016576

[Shadrach]

100MIAS is max deployment speed, not where most Mooneys are flown full flaps. I don't typically deploy flaps fully until south of 80MIAS (depending on weight). I thought I read her that someone plotted J model L/Dmax at gross was plotted to be 115MIAS but I don't remember the name of the thread.  I agree with your assessment but isn't it fair to say that even with the flaps retracted, flying deep into the drag side of the curve produces...well...uh...drag?  There's a drill best practiced at less busy airports where you maintain pattern altitude on final slowing to just above stall, when the runway disappears under the nose, power is cut and pitch is used to maintain enough energy for the flair all the way to touchdown.  I have done this exercise with and without flaps, either way the plane comes down like an elevator.

[Hank]

32 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

100MIAS is max deployment speed, not where most Mooneys are flown full flaps. I don't typically deploy flaps fully until south of 80MIAS (depending on weight). I thought I read her that someone plotted J model L/Dmax at gross was plotted to be 115kts but I don't remember the name of the thread.  I agree with your assessment but isn't it fair to say that even with the flaps retracted, flying deep into the drag side of the curve produces...well...uh...drag?  There's a drill best practiced at less busy airports where you maintain pattern altitude on final slowing to just above stall, when the runway disappears under the nose, power is cut and pitch is used to maintain enough energy for the flair all the way down.  I have done this exercise with and without flaps, either way the plane comes down like an elevator.

For my slightly later Vintage Mooney, Vfe = 125 mph, and I often add Takeoff Flaps as I slow through 120 if I'm at pattern entry already. Landing Flaps are reserved for final approach when too high (I'm a believer in "Flaps--as desired" to reach my intended last ding spot). Full flaps are rare, usually those calm days when the plane just won't descend.

I've accidentally tried your exercise above, throttle to idle and hold 85 mph, hoping desperately to be able to land and not go around, making me late for lunch with my friends who landed just before me; a go around at a towered field is much more time consuming than at home, especially after a long, not as steep as I wanted, 85 mph descent . . . Let's just say I'm not a fan of this approach.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

For my slightly later Vintage Mooney, Vfe = 125 mph, and I often add Takeoff Flaps as I slow through 120 if I'm at pattern entry already. Landing Flaps are reserved for final approach when too high (I'm a believer in "Flaps--as desired" to reach my intended last ding spot). Full flaps are rare, usually those calm days when the plane just won't descend.

I've accidentally tried your exercise above, throttle to idle and hold 85 mph, hoping desperately to be able to land and not go around, making me late for lunch with my friends who landed just before me; a go around at a towered field is much more time consuming than at home, especially after a long, not as steep as I wanted, 85 mph descent . . . Let's just say I'm not a fan of this approach.

In my excercise IAS would be more like 60-65MIAS.

[pinerunner]

Although I've expected to, I haven't yet had to land on one wheel in a cross-wind landing. The cross-wind always (so far) seems significantly less when I get to the point of flaring than it was during the final approach. So I've had to level the wings during the flare and not needed the side slip that I expected to need. I suspect Mooney's are one of the easiest aircraft with respect to cross-wind landings as long as your speed control is good. I think its cause we sit so low and are in slower air when the wheels touch.  But maybe I've just been lucky. 

[salty]

27 minutes ago, pinerunner said:

Although I've expected to, I haven't yet had to land on one wheel in a cross-wind landing. The cross-wind always (so far) seems significantly less when I get to the point of flaring than it was during the final approach. So I've had to level the wings during the flare and not needed the side slip that I expected to need. I suspect Mooney's are one of the easiest aircraft with respect to cross-wind landings as long as your speed control is good. I think its cause we sit so low and are in slower air when the wheels touch.  But maybe I've just been lucky. 

It's not just you. I have the same experience. I've landed on one wheel a time or two, but only slightly. My home airport is a narrow runway with trees and houses fairly close, so I think once I hit ground effect, most of the wind is mitigated. But even at other airports with large fields it seems like once you're in ground effect, the crosswind isn't much of a factor. 

[Oscar Avalle]

It's not just you. I have the same experience. I've landed on one wheel a time or two, but only slightly. My home airport is a narrow runway with trees and houses fairly close, so I think once I hit ground effect, most of the wind is mitigated. But even at other airports with large fields it seems like once you're in ground effect, the crosswind isn't much of a factor. 

Same with me too. Hardly ever did I land on one wheel.


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[pinerunner]

If I need to lose a lot of altitude quick I use a bit of a forward slip, 90 MPH, and full flaps. I was shy about it at first; it's not a Piper Cub after all. When I was being checked out in the plane I was thinking of purchasing (the seller let me get my biannual in it; great sales strategy) the instructor had me practicing forced landings. In one instance I was too high for the field I had picked and was going pick another. Idling and full flaps we were clearly going to overshoot. His response was no; you picked it you got to make it. So I shifted the nose over and dropped the opposite wing and down we came. Since I knew I was flying one of those scary laminar flow wing airplanes I glanced at the airspeed and kept it close to 90 MPH. He grinned at me and said that was what he was looking for. 

It doesn't take an extreme slip to change our slippery profile and generate drag if you want it.

I did watch a vid where an arobatic plane set up an extreme slip and stalled it. It flipped (as in rolled) a complete revolution in the opposite direction from what you'd get with a skid. So while I do believe slips are less dangerous than skids I don't think you should get too cozy with them. Speed control is the game with these planes, especially the older Mooneys like mine that don't give you much room between the stall speed and the maximum flap extension speed which is so easy to exceed.

Don't be afraid of slips but do master your speed control.   

Edited March 6, 2017 by pinerunner

[Guitarmaster]

On 2/28/2017 at 10:28 PM, Yetti said:

If you can do one wheel landings you should be pretty comfortable after your time with your CFI.  Have not found the rudder limit of the Mooney yet.

Just a few days ago, foot on the floor, land on the right main, 28G32kt direct cross.  The the hardest part; when all three wheels were on the ground!  She wanted to weathervane something awful!    It is a responsive plane and can get squirly in the crosswinds, but no real surprises.   

in the beginning, I was kind of worried about how much the gear could take.  As I have grown with my airplane, I have learned that it would take a tremendous hit to break the gear.

Fly your Mooney like a taildragger and you can't go wrong; except always 'three-point', never 'wheel land.'  This applies to bounce's too.  If you bounce, DON'T force it down!  It will be just like a taildragger.  You will turn into a ping-pong ball and eventually hit the prop.  

As a low-timer, if you flew taildraggers, you could use your max crosswind limit on the tailwheel as your starting point in the your Mooney.

 

[Yetti]

wind at `130 13 gusting to 21 landing runway 18..... did not even notice it.  Mooneys are good at crosswind.

[Oscar Avalle]

Stand to be corrected, today I landed at leesburg executive in VA on RWY 17, wind 260 at 20 gust 25. Landed after one go around. One wheel touchdown...


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[donkaye]

I flew a ferry flight then am doing a transition training in a recently purchased and WAAS and ADS-B upgraded Acclaim.  On the way out I saw ground speeds of 276 knots, the fastest I have ever gone in a Mooney of any type.  I had ground speeds in excess of 245 knots all the way.  I was glad to be headed East.  However, for the first time ever, I stayed overnight in Beatrice, NE, a town I never heard of before this flight, instead of proceeding to Dupage yesterday.  The reason--Winds.  Yesterday, the winds at Dupage all day were in the neighborhood of 29G49 with peak gusts of 52.  The winds were 40° off the most aligned runway.  When I arrived here this morning, I asked if any light aircraft came in yesterday.  They answered, "No."

I've attached a picture when I saw 264 knots over the ground.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I flew a ferry flight then am doing a transition training in a recently purchased and WAAS and ADS-B upgraded Acclaim.  On the way out I saw ground speeds of 276 knots, the fastest I have ever gone in a Mooney of any type.  I had ground speeds in excess of 245 knots all the way.  I was glad to be headed East.  However, for the first time ever, I stayed overnight in Beatrice, NE, a town I never heard of before this flight, instead of proceeding to Dupage yesterday.  The reason--Winds.  Yesterday, the winds at Dupage all day were in the neighborhood of 29G49 with peak gusts of 52.  The winds were 40° off the most aligned runway.  When I arrived here this morning, I asked if any light aircraft came in yesterday.  They answered, "No."  I've landing in 50 knots steady winds aligned closely to the runway, but wind gusts equal or greater than the steady state winds at 40° off the runway alignment in a 3,300 pound airplane when you can wait one day and have benign winds--a no brainer decision.

I've attached a picture when I saw 264 knots over the ground.  Take a close look at the shape of the fuel range rings.  They tell the story of the winds aloft.

Air time KSBA to KDPA = 6.4 hours.  Not bad for a single engine airplane.

 

[Shadrach]

27 minutes ago, donkaye said:

I flew a ferry flight then am doing a transition training in a recently purchased and WAAS and ADS-B upgraded Acclaim.  On the way out I saw ground speeds of 276 knots, the fastest I have ever gone in a Mooney of any type.  I had ground speeds in excess of 245 knots all the way.  I was glad to be headed East.  However, for the first time ever, I stayed overnight in Beatrice, NE, a town I never heard of before this flight, instead of proceeding to Dupage yesterday.  The reason--Winds.  Yesterday, the winds at Dupage all day were in the neighborhood of 29G49 with peak gusts of 52.  The winds were 40° off the most aligned runway.  When I arrived here this morning, I asked if any light aircraft came in yesterday.  They answered, "No."

I've attached a picture when I saw 264 knots over the ground.

just imagine the wind needed to do this in a stock F model

[MBDiagMan]

Well, I now have some crosswind reporting as a low time Mooney pilot.  We had a 12 gusting  to nineteen today and it was virtually a non event.

[Hank]

2 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

Well, I now have some crosswind reporting as a low time Mooney pilot.  We had a 12 gusting  to nineteen today and it was virtually a non event.

Pretty doggone good for your first day flying a Mooney!

[MBDiagMan]

I was very tired when I got home and wrote my crosswind success so I want to be clear.  The wind was 12 G19 at 200 and I was landing on 17, so only part of that was crosswind component.  The fact that it was gusty is what impressed me with the airplane.  I would have known for sure I was in a gusty wind had I been in my little taildragger.

[Oscar Avalle]

22 hours ago, MBDiagMan said:

I was very tired when I got home and wrote my crosswind success so I want to be clear.  The wind was 12 G19 at 200 and I was landing on 17, so only part of that was crosswind component.  The fact that it was gusty is what impressed me with the airplane.  I would have known for sure I was in a gusty wind had I been in my little taildragger.

I understand, yeah our planes are great...they are very stable and behave as they are supposed to. I am always surprised when I fly with a Cessna or Bo driver and how much they have to work to achieve a nice landing. On our side, if you keep the speeds in line, a nice landing is mostly assured. But of course the speed management is not always that easy... 

[exM20K]

On 3/9/2017 at 6:51 PM, donkaye said:

I flew a ferry flight then am doing a transition training in a recently purchased and WAAS and ADS-B upgraded Acclaim.  On the way out I saw ground speeds of 276 knots, the fastest I have ever gone in a Mooney of any type.  I had ground speeds in excess of 245 knots all the way.  I was glad to be headed East.  However, for the first time ever, I stayed overnight in Beatrice, NE, a town I never heard of before this flight, instead of proceeding to Dupage yesterday.  The reason--Winds.  Yesterday, the winds at Dupage all day were in the neighborhood of 29G49 with peak gusts of 52.  The winds were 40° off the most aligned runway.  When I arrived here this morning, I asked if any light aircraft came in yesterday.  They answered, "No."

I've attached a picture when I saw 264 knots over the ground.

Pretty close to the same place, coming back from Vegas:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N676JM/history/20170120/1530Z/KVGT/KWWR/tracklog

Probably should have turned up the power a bit to get a >300 Kt groundspeed for a few minutes!  

 

This was at 65% LOP.  5.5 hours flying time with a fuel stop Vegas -> Chicago.  These machines are remarkable.

 

Regarding the OP's original question:  I'm not a low-time pilot, but regardless of experience, the length/width/proximity of trees alongside the runway will for sure raise or lower my comfort level.  I cancelled a flight with a well-known master flight instructor yesterday because the winds were 15kts 45* offset from our bitty runway of  2250x30. I've done it plenty of times in the 231 and a few in the Acclaim, but it's not really useful for what we wanted to do.

 

-dan