Cheap way into the ADSB & WAAS IFR GPS LPV club?

[tigers2007]

Any opinions or comments about an "easy way" into this? Would it be satisfactory to acquire a used GTX330ES (or 330 then pay for the upgrade) and a used 400W/500W/430W/530W? I see that 330's go for 1-2AMU's (depending on ES upgrade) and I have seen 400W's for as low as 3AMU's. I know that the GTX345 has AHRS and Bluetooth, which is nice, but that individual device alone is more expensive than a used 330ES+400W installed. I have an SL30 nav/comm now and could add in a VAL COM2000 to account for the loss of the 300XL's comm feature.

[glafaille]

Stratus ESG, FreeFlight and L3 all have solutions with WAAS GPS built in to a single box and can be installed for about 5 to 7 AMU out the door.  A single box solution appeals to me as I do not have WAAS, but do have an IFR approach legal non-WAAS GPS which happens to be the same one you have.  I love my Garmin 300XL!  I see no reason to retire it, and back ups are getting cheaper by the day.

From reading all the posts on this board and others, it seems that some are encountering problems getting all the different boxes to play nice with each other.  Trying to get multiple used boxes to play nice might be even more of a challenge.  I think that going new would increase the odds of success, especially with an "all in one" type solution.  Plus, I suspect that product support would be more enthusiastic in supporting a new equipment install if problems were encountered.

By the time you bought a used 400W and a GTX345 and a Com2000 I think you will have spent quite a bit more.  I can't remember if the Com2000 is TSO'd or not, but I can't find any shop in this area that will install a VAL anything, especially if it's not TSO'd.  Check with your local shop before you start buying stuff.

[lamont337]

Agree about the 300XL. If mine wasn't a VFR install that lacked annunciators and an appropriate CDI I probably would have kept it.

[glafaille]

In aviation it's the install labor price that drives many of our decisions.  The installation can cost more than the boxes themselves, particularly used boxes.

[Piloto]

GPS LPV gives you more IFR approach options than anything else. A lot of airports are adding LPV approaches to non-ILS runways. The cheapest way for LPV is a used GNS 530W. Aside from getting the approach capability you can get ADS-B WX and traffic display when mated with the GTX 345. But is not cheap, about $15K.

José

[cnoe]

I have seen 400W's for as low as 3AMU's.

Maybe $4000. ~$6000 for a GNS430W.

If it has a problem the repair cost is $900 for the 430; are the 400s even supported (they're not shown on Garmin repair list).

I love LPV approaches but not sure I'd buy a 400. 430W/530W are great as a budget buy though.

[gsxrpilot]

I think you're on target here. Shop for the best deal on a 430W and GTX330ES. You might check with Chase at Avionics Source. He's taken in a lot of trades.

Do the 430W first, and then add the GTX.

[glafaille]

Tigers2007:

What do you have for a #2 Nav?  If that 430 craps out you've lost a GPS Nav, VOR/ILS Nav, Comm and ADS-B out.  Why not just keep the 300XL for your #2?

[tigers2007]

Right now I have the SL30 with what looks like a GI-106A indicator. The SL30 also has its own built-in CDI. I was figuring I would sell the 300XL for whatever it's worth now ($1000-1200 market value). It's my understanding that the 400W/500W are the same as the 430W/530W but without the NAV & COM benefit. The used ones tend to be significantly cheaper than the navcomm versions from what I saw. Besides - aren't they effectively purging most of the VOR's very soon?


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[glafaille]

It's really sad that folks on this board and others spread misinformation on the issue of FAA shutdown of VORs.  Lots of people are basing their decisions and spending big money on misinformation spread by those with incomplete information.

The FAA operates almost 1000 VORs throughout the USA and seeks to eventuallly shutdown about 1/3rd of them.  The remaining 2/3rds will remain operational for the forseeable future as a backup to the GPS system.

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2015/november/24/faa-begins-decommissioning-vors

It is possible that a shutdown of a particular VOR may affect an approach at an airport you currently use but so what?  You said you have a Garmin 300XL which is an IFR approach legal GPS that will get you down to LNAV minimums as long as Jeppessen supports the database.  

Do you intend to operate in weather below LNAV minimums and is an ILS/VOR/NDB approach  available at those airports?  What additional capability will the proposed equipment provide?  These are the sorts of questions you should be asking yourself when considering an expensive upgrade to your navigation system.  It's very easy to spend many thousands of dollars and receive very little additional capability.  But gosh doesn't all that new stuff look cool!

 

 

[gsxrpilot]

It's really sad that folks on this board and others spread misinformation...
But gosh doesn't all that new stuff look cool!

Says the guy flying a Grumman.

[glafaille]

I also fly a Lear 60, have over 15,000 hours and 7,000 hours of night time.  A Grumman is no more or less an airplane than any other, just one that fits my mission and budget.  "Cool" is operating an airplane that best suits your mission, at a price well within your budget and with a high degree of safety.  

Sad that some think others are less worthy because of the aircraft they own.  I guess I have a unique ability, I look forward to learning from everyone, regardless of experience level, background or the aircraft they fly.

The OP originally stated his desire to inexpensively comply with ADS-B.  Depending on his existing equipment, cost efficient compliance may not start with purchasing a Garmin navigation system.  There are less expensive alternatives he may not be aware of.

The FAA is not going to shut down all the VORs, they aren't even going to shut down most of the VORs.  If they did, what would be the backup to GPS?  GPS is easily jammed and a backup is needed both on the ground and in the airplane.

Deciding to sell your SL30 and install a new GPS nav system because you read on a post that the FAA is going to soon turn the switch off on all the VORs, could be a decision based on misinformation.  More research would be wise.

[cnoe]

We all agree about misinformation; it looks like VORs will still be around for a long while. If the OP doesn't give a hoot about the thousands of new LPV approaches, or VNAV at all then there are cheaper ways to achieve ADS-B compliance. I'm only suggesting to beware of purchasing used avionics whose support has already been abandoned.


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[glafaille]

2 minutes ago, cnoe said:

We all agree about misinformation; it looks like VORs will still be around for a long while. If the OP doesn't give a hoot about the thousands of new LPV approaches, or VNAV at all then there are cheaper ways to achieve ADS-B compliance. I'm only suggesting to beware of purchasing used avionics whose support has already been abandoned.


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I agree 100%.  We do not know yet how the OP intends to operate the aircraft or his experience level.  Without this information it is difficult to suggest much beyond his basic question of cheap ADS-B compliance options.

I agree also that installing used equipment is often a receipe for trouble if the equipment is not enthusiastically supported by the manufacturer.  Although I tend to be a frugal sort of person and usually buy used stuff in my personal life, it's difficult for me to see the value in installing used avionics UNLESS I could find a REALLY cheap installer.  (harder to find than unicorns)

Like the OP, I am struggling with ADS-B decisions, both in my personal life and my professional life.  The cost/benefit ratio is not yet  favorable  in either case.  I share the OPs concerns and seek only to provide information to assist in a reliable decision.

[mooniac15u]

Another thing to consider is the potential long term impact of having your ADS-B transponder dependent on specific navigational equipment.  If you install a 430W and use it as a position source for a specific transponder then at any point if you decide to replace the 430W you have to make sure the replacement is compatible with the transponder.  For example, if you install a GTX330ES with the 430W as the position source, are you forever stuck with owning a Garmin GPS in order to keep the transponder working?  Installing an ADS-B transponder with its own position source may cost a little more now but it might give you options later and it might even save you money in the long run.

[tigers2007]

I'm not going to purge the SL30; that is a great little nav-comm. I'm investigating a cheap but effective entry into the ADS-B and IFR LPV approach capability zone. I have already gleaned from the comments that I should stick with a supported models; GNS430W/530W. Granted, it looks like the Flightstreams are ready and able to communicate with the GPS only GNS400W/500W. The "deal" that I see is that I can enter the ADS-B zone for half the price (about $2k for a GTX330ES) compared to $4-5.5k for the Appareo or GTX345. Obviously, I would need a WAAS source if I chose to go with the 330ES; hence the desire for the Garmin moving map receivers. So the only savings I'm getting here is paying about half for ADS-B transceiver capability. So it comes down to, pay $4-5.5k for the Appareo or GTX345 alone or pay $1-3k more and get ADS-B out plus WAAS LPV approach capability.

5 hours ago, glafaille said:

Do you intend to operate in weather below LNAV minimums and is an ILS/VOR/NDB approach  available at those airports?  What additional capability will the proposed equipment provide? 

 

Those are excellent questions as my 300XL already provides me minimum equipment for approaches into most airports. Keeping the 300XL is a good idea for the redundancy. The only additional capability the Garmin WAAS moving map equipment will get me is LPV approaches.

[cnoe]

The only additional capability the Garmin WAAS moving map equipment will get me is LPV approaches.

That plus it's the position source for your ADS-B Out; the 300XL doesn't do that.

If the 300XL has resale value, plus it's no longer being supported by Garmin, sell it then take the money and run (if you're buying a 430W/530W). The SL30 and indicator are your backup. And an iPad for triple (uncertified) redundancy.



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[N6758N]

I really don't see an 'inexpensive' way to be ADS-B compliant, unless you already have a GTX330 and you simply do the ES upgrade, even then you are looking at $1500ish with labor. I have a GNS430 that I upgraded to WAAS about 6 months ago. I will be selling my GTX3327 and buying a 330ES from a friend in the Avionics business, I am an IA so I will be installing it myself, and I will still have close to $2,000 in the airplane to be compliant, not including the WAAS upgrade. To the OP, absolutely keep your SL30 and the GI-106A. Those Nav-coms are near bullet proof and they take up no space. Sell the 300XL while you can still get some money for it, as others noted, they can no longer be repaired from Garmin. If you really want the LPV approach capability, I would go with the 430W and a 330ES, that will be your cheapest all in solution to have both. You are probably still looking at around $11k installed for that equipment. If you can do without the LPV for now, then go with the Stratus ESG transponder, it has built in WAAS and should be around $4,000 installed. I guess nothing is inexpensive in this business...

[larryb]

This being aviation, there is no such thing as "cheap." 

How do you plan to manage your plane? Lowest cost today, or lowest cost over the long haul. 

If you want lowest cost long term a GTN650 + GTX345 will be a good solution for the next 20 years. If it's lowest cost today, then some combination of used equipment. But that used equipment will likely come to the end of it's useful life sooner and may cost more in the long term.

Larry

[Hank]

2 hours ago, N6758N said:

I really don't see an 'inexpensive' way to be ADS-B compliant, unless you already have a GTX330 and you simply do the ES upgrade, even then you are looking at $1500ish with labor. I have a GNS430 that I upgraded to WAAS about 6 months ago. I will be selling my GTX3327 . . . I would go with the 430W and a 330ES, that will be your cheapest all in solution to have both. . . .the Stratus ESG transponder, it has built in WAAS and should be around $4,000 installed. I guess nothing is inexpensive in this business...

I'm in the same boat, 430W and GTX327. My current plan, since I don't fly to C airports and ATL has yet to let me into the Bravo, is to keep on with what I have until either they develop issues and must be replaced, or I decide that I really, really need to cross C airspace. Hopefully many of the pilots who fly along head-down watching their TV displays for traffic will have a way to see non-ADSB-compliant aircraft . . . The way I see it, I can put those 4AMUs into my interior rather than adding more equipment to my already-crowded panel.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Hank

[N6758N]

35 minutes ago, Hank said:

I'm in the same boat, 430W and GTX327. My current plan, since I don't fly to C airports and ATL has yet to let me into the Bravo, is to keep on with what I have until either they develop issues and must be replaced, or I decide that I really, really need to cross C airspace. Hopefully many of the pilots who fly along head-down watching their TV displays for traffic will have a way to see non-ADSB-compliant aircraft . . . The way I see it, I can put those 4AMUs into my interior rather than adding more equipment to my already-crowded panel.

I wish I was able to avoid the B/C airspace, but living inside a Bravo ring and Mode C veil leaves me no choice. The only issue I see with waiting to comply with the mandate is that used equipment prices are falling everyday. A year ago a GTX330 non ES was worth around $2-2,500, now they can be had for less than $1,000. I shudder to think what my 327 will be worth when I go to sell it. 

[glafaille]

Hank:

I like your "office", it has that "Lived in" look.  The old school steam gauges aren't as pretty as the new stuff but it is sure cheaper to maintain or replace, and gets you there just as fast.  My plane is very similar.

Looks like you may have removed a bunch of post lamps, how are things lit now?

[gsxrpilot]

3 hours ago, Hank said:

I'm in the same boat, 430W and GTX327. My current plan, since I don't fly to C airports and ATL has yet to let me into the Bravo, is to keep on with what I have until either they develop issues and must be replaced, or I decide that I really, really need to cross C airspace. Hopefully many of the pilots who fly along head-down watching their TV displays for traffic will have a way to see non-ADSB-compliant aircraft . . . The way I see it, I can put those 4AMUs into my interior rather than adding more equipment to my already-crowded panel.

Everyone has their own interpretation of "expensive". Where you are right now Hank, for $2000 you could swap your GTX327 for a GTX330ES. My avionics shop charged me $400 in labor. To me, that's cheap entry into the ADSB club and it doesn't further clutter your panel. You could likely trade your 327 for the labor.

By the way, there's no way I would want to fly behind that panel, no offense, it's just way to cluttered for me. I like my office to be organized and tidy.

[gsxrpilot]

For my money, a good time to upgrade is when there's a lot of movement in equipment. Right now there seems to be a lot of people upgrading to either the Avidyne IFD series or the Garmin GTN series. This is putting a lot of GNS boxes out on the secondary market, depressing their prices. I already had a GNS530W so I took the opportunity to get value for it and upgrade to an IFD540. I didn't have to, but the value of the GNS's are dropping and I thought I'd get the value out now that I could.

If one WANTS (no one needs it), this would be a good time to get into WAAS GPS capability with a GNS430 or 530. Their value is dropping but will certainly retain a certain amount of value as long as Garmin continues to support them. Keeping resale value in mind, the GNS 530W 14/28v will be the most valuable.

I'm in a different camp when it comes to the all in one ADSB/WAAS transponders. To me, the second WAAS is wasted. I don't ever intend to have a plane without WAAS GPS capability and therefore won't need the WAAS in the transponder. Installation is a bit more with those boxes as well because of the additional antenna.  If the WAAS goes down in my GPS, I'm more concerned about the loss of GPS capability than I am the loss of ADSB. In either case, I'd likely be correcting the issue prior to much additional flying. But that's just me.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, gsxrpilot said:

By the way, there's no way I would want to fly behind that panel, no offense, it's just way to cluttered for me. I like my office to be organized and tidy.

It will look much better when the overlay is replaced. It broke, and I removed it for use as a template. I'm debating $300 for a new trim-to-fit plastic piece, or laminating some cherry veneer and cutting it to match.