Funny conversation between controllers

[Mooneymite]

The ATL approach controllers regularly give specific altitude and heading "suggestions" to any VFR aircraft they're talking to.  It irritates me that they want VFR traffic 600' below the Class B floor in some sectors.  The reason is to keep the ATL bound heavy metal from getting TCAS alerts and deviating from assigned altitudes, but the Class B was recently changed to further inconvenience VFR traffic.  All in all, ATL does a great job...just be prepared to fly "nape of the earth" going under the extended runway centerlines.

[Mooneymite]

Just now, PMcClure said:

Question - when asked for heading, do you give your heading or course? 

They want mag. heading.  Their vectors account for wind.  To represent your course as heading info confuses the process.

[Yooper Rocketman]

1 hour ago, PMcClure said:

Question - when asked for heading, do you give your heading or course? I respond with my compass heading but that doesn't account for wind correction angle which I have seen as high as 30 degrees. If they are asking that for traffic separation, it seems they need the course? 

I just had that with MSP Approach last week.  He asked for heading and I was on a 20 degree wind correction.  I replied back my heading is 280, my course is 260, knowing he was going to steer me even farther south if he didn't really know what he was asking for.  This is the same controller that didn't get me down soon enough and a supervisor came on with further instructions (and a thank you after the fact).

Tom

[peevee]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

They want mag. heading.  Their vectors account for wind.  To represent your course as heading info confuses the process.

Mmmmm.... 

They have no idea what your wind correction is hence the question. They can measure your magnetic course in 3 seconds. 

[PMcClure]

1 hour ago, peevee said:

Mmmmm.... 

They have no idea what your wind correction is hence the question. They can measure your magnetic course in 3 seconds. 

I think that is right. In radar coverage they should know our course heading. Seems unlikely they could know the winds correction at different altitudes, speeds. etc...

When they get you set up, I see why they ask so they can check for conflicts, etc.. But why do they ask you this in cruise? Are they just checking for wind? Inquiring minds want to know? 

[DXB]

Around here, I rarely hear headings and altitudes given on VFR FF presented as suggestions - they sound like directions, particularly near the NY and Boston Bravos. In absence of any hazard, I comply.    I have not noticed this in other parts of the country.    While flying at 3000 msl, I've even been yelled at:   "2971L, I need you at a VFR altitude for your heading now! Pick either 2500 or 4500!"      Well technically, those altitudes only apply above 3000 AGL, which was not the situation, but I wasn't going to argue with the guy.

[peevee]

1 hour ago, PMcClure said:

I think that is right. In radar coverage they should know our course heading. Seems unlikely they could know the winds correction at different altitudes, speeds. etc...

When they get you set up, I see why they ask so they can check for conflicts, etc.. But why do they ask you this in cruise? Are they just checking for wind? Inquiring minds want to know? 

A couple scenarios.

Some controllers like to assign headings rather than turn 10,20,30 degrees left/right. It's really dumb to give you a 320 heading because your ground track is 310 but you're already flying a 320 heading for the wind. N1234 say heading. N1234 heading 320. N1234 fly heading 330, vector traffic.

If you have traffic next to you deviating into you for weather. They'll aks what heading they want, what heading you're on, and assign you the heading they're deviating to so they don't deviate into you.

There are millions more.

 

I think it probably varies some by center but most orient their scopes to true north and not magnetic.

Edited July 25, 2016 by peevee

[bonal]

Sometimes I'll be given a specific heading but most times it's a left or right of a certain number of degrees which tells me they already know my track like 14U give me left 30 degrees and once they have me clear I don't receive an adjusted heading they just say resume navigation and leave it up to me to figure out what my new heading should be. 

[Robert C.]

49 minutes ago, bonal said:

Sometimes I'll be given a specific heading but most times it's a left or right of a certain number of degrees which tells me they already know my track like 14U give me left 30 degrees and once they have me clear I don't receive an adjusted heading they just say resume navigation and leave it up to me to figure out what my new heading should be. 

yep, that's exactly what happened to me on Sunday near Newport, RI when I was asked to deviate 10deg left for "jumpers."

[Ron McBride]

I flew across Oklahoma, Texas and New Mexico today, VFR, many of course deviations for traffic and weather and more weather, FF suggested some, I asked for others.  Many reports of wet weather ahead, and suggested for course changes.  We worked together and had a great day. I was up to 14,500 with an outside temp of 40F, not much climb left in my F.         Density Altitude would not let me depart Gallup NM for home (9400), I am in a Motel.   An inexpensive Turbo for my F sure looks good right now.

The FBO in Gallup is great, took me to a Motel and will pick me up in the morning on the way to work in the morning.   This is probably my 20th trip in 30 years to Oklahoma and the first time I had to stay in a Motel, and it was both ways this year.

Ron

[carusoam]

If everyone answers the same way, we are fortunately standardized in a lower cost way.

If they ask for heading.  Give them heading...

if they ask for altitude, give them altitude using your altimeter derived altitude using the proper number placed in the kolsman window....

if you do this, everyone will be off the same amount.

if you give them ground track, you would be different than the less fortunate aviators that are only using simple VFR navigation by waypoints.

if you give them altitude by GPS derived altitude information, you will have standardized on a different system than the low cost standard that seems to work pretty well...

i am only a pp, not a CFI....

best regards,

-a-