Let's play the IFR GPS game

[KSMooniac]

Especially if we can add that capability for $5k or less in another year or two...

[glafaille]

5 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Especially if we can add that capability for $5k or less in another year or two...

Exactly my point.  

You may be able to buy it ALL, including a coupled autopilot, and stay under 40 AMU.  IF you wait till after the Part 23 re-write is official.  

All the cool avionics that do more and cost less that are going into non-certified airplanes, may become available to small certified aircraft like the Mooney.

The question is how bad do you want it now and how will you feel if in two years you could have had much more for less?  The Part 23 re-write is a "game changer" that could have abhuge impact on the price of equipment and re-sale value.

[jetdriven]

What in the part 23 rewrite makes people so excited?  Performance based approval standards? 

[glafaille]

There is a huge assortment of equipment including engines, engine gauges, avionics, autopilots and more, that are NOT approved for installation into certified aircraft but ARE approved for experimental/homebuilt aircraft.  Because this equipment does not have to be TSOd it can be manufactured and sold for much less.  Much of the equipment MEETS the TSO requirements but the manufacturer does not want to spend the money and time to have it certified as TSOd.

The Part 23 re-write will likely allow this equipment to be installed in smaller Part 23 aircraft as long as the aircraft will not operate under FAR 135.

[Godfather]

15 minutes ago, glafaille said:

There is a huge assortment of equipment including engines, engine gauges, avionics, autopilots and more, that are NOT approved for installation into certified aircraft but ARE approved for experimental/homebuilt aircraft.  Because this equipment does not have to be TSOd it can be manufactured and sold for much less.  Much of the equipment MEETS the TSO requirements but the manufacturer does not want to spend the money and time to have it certified as TSOd.

The Part 23 re-write will likely allow this equipment to be installed in smaller Part 23 aircraft as long as the aircraft will not operate under FAR 135.

Or buy what you want and enjoy life!  LL will be $6 per gallon before anything major happens...  I'll have another 1000 hrs of flying behind a gps I enjoy using before something better comes along.

[jetdriven]

22 minutes ago, glafaille said:

There is a huge assortment of equipment including engines, engine gauges, avionics, autopilots and more, that are NOT approved for installation into certified aircraft but ARE approved for experimental/homebuilt aircraft.  Because this equipment does not have to be TSOd it can be manufactured and sold for much less.  Much of the equipment MEETS the TSO requirements but the manufacturer does not want to spend the money and time to have it certified as TSOd.

The Part 23 re-write will likely allow this equipment to be installed in smaller Part 23 aircraft as long as the aircraft will not operate under FAR 135.

Ok, I see your point, for EFIS and autopilots.  But Is there anything exciting coming as far as big-box GPS navcoms?

[KSMooniac]

I would guess not... I don't think there are any alternatives to the presently certified stuff so I would continue your research & shopping to figure out which one works best for y'all.

[Godfather]

Just now, jetdriven said:

Ok, I see your point, for EFIS and autopilots.  But Is there anything exciting coming as far as big-box GPS navcoms?

Not if you want an IFR approach certified unit...as far as I know.

[jetdriven]

2 minutes ago, Godfather said:

Not if you want an IFR approach certified unit...as far as I know.

So I'd rather keep the discussion on-point.  Non-BK WASS GPS navcom installed.  Likely an audio panel. Perhaps an engine monitor. Slim chance of an aspen.  No autopilot upgrades at this time.

HSI:. I've flown thousands of hours behind mechanical and digital HSI's and I know their value in real IFR, mostly with intercepting and flying an ILS. The six pack plus a separate "sword fight" indicator, to me, really adds to the workload.  I can't fly as precisely as with an HSI.  In that regard, I think a KCS-55 system is a great unit, but past it's time for a fresh install. However, I did see a Sandel SN3308 for 2500$ on Beechtalk, and I know I can install that. There are different models of these things.  Any pireps on Sandel's?  

[KSMooniac]

You still need to install a remote gyro and magnetometer in the wing to drive the Sandel.  You can use the old KG102A from a King system for modest money, or something newer and modern for several AMU (from Mid-Continent or Sandel).  I too thought about the 3308, but by the time you get the rest of the system for a new installation, you're too close to Aspen territory and you still have an extra gyro to feed.  You also need to get a 3308 with the version 2.3+ software for WAAS, and those are hard to find.  The one for sale on BT has it.

I've only heard and read very positive reviews of the Sandel.  Price for updates and support leave a lot to be desired, though.  

[N9453V]

5 hours ago, cnoe said:

Thanks for the comments Bob.

In spite of my not having an HSI it appears they do lessen the workload some on an IFR approach. But I'm curious about your "intercept angle" statement. I assume you're referring to a course interception outside the FAF, and that inside the FAF you're flying the needles just like me? I'm just trying to get a firm grasp on the advantages here.

Outside the FAF the 530W does a fine job of depicting my course intercept visually on the default NAV page. In any case I can't see dropping 5-7 AMU on a used HSI to replace my GI-106. Besides I plan to replace all my avionics with Google's new "Autonomous Flight System" in a couple of years anyway!

The 530W does not graphically show your intercept angle since it does not know your heading. On an HSI, your CDI is superimposed over your heading indicator so you always see the number of degrees you'll have to turn to intercept your FAC.

If you only fly a few approaches per year in light IMC, you probably won't see the value in an HSI but if you fly hundreds of hours in hard IFR including flying down to minimums, you'll see it reduces your workload immensely. I've not met a single professional pilot who didn't think so. Btw, a used HSI can be had for maybe $2000.

-Andrew

[Bob - S50]

23 hours ago, cnoe said:

Thanks for the comments Bob.

In spite of my not having an HSI it appears they do lessen the workload some on an IFR approach. But I'm curious about your "intercept angle" statement. I assume you're referring to a course interception outside the FAF, and that inside the FAF you're flying the needles just like me? I'm just trying to get a firm grasp on the advantages here.

Outside the FAF the 530W does a fine job of depicting my course intercept visually on the default NAV page. In any case I can't see dropping 5-7 AMU on a used HSI to replace my GI-106. Besides I plan to replace all my avionics with Google's new "Autonomous Flight System" in a couple of years anyway!

Here is a picture of an HSI.  The airplane (orange cross) in the middle is you.  Normally the NAV and HDG flags would not be there so pretend they are not there.  When you look at the HSI you can SEE that you are right of course and heading toward it.  The yellow bugs on either side indicate you are on glideslope.  If you were using a DG and CDI in this same location, you have to look at the CDI and see that it is set to 205 and you are right of course.  You then need to look at the DG and figure you need something to the left of 205 so you would pick 175 for a 30 degree intercept.  With the HSI, if the intercept angle is not enough due to winds, you'll see the course drifting further away from you so you simply make a left turn to increase the intercept angle.

Another trick that helps with an intercept when there is little or no wind:  When the lubber line (the white line coming down from the top) touches the end of the course deviation segment (the yellow bar), start your turn and use a bank angle that keeps the lubber line touching the end of the course deviation segment.  You'll roll out on course.  If the deviation indicator moves inside the lubber line as shown here, you need more bank.  If the deviation indicator moves the other way, you need less bank.  That won't work if there is a significant crosswind because you'll need a drift correction.  But even then, it will get you in the ballpark in a controlled manor.

[mike_elliott]

19 hours ago, jetdriven said:

So I'd rather keep the discussion on-point.  Non-BK WASS GPS navcom installed.  Likely an audio panel. Perhaps an engine monitor. Slim chance of an aspen.  No autopilot upgrades at this time.

HSI:. I've flown thousands of hours behind mechanical and digital HSI's and I know their value in real IFR, mostly with intercepting and flying an ILS. The six pack plus a separate "sword fight" indicator, to me, really adds to the workload.  I can't fly as precisely as with an HSI.  In that regard, I think a KCS-55 system is a great unit, but past it's time for a fresh install. However, I did see a Sandel SN3308 for 2500$ on Beechtalk, and I know I can install that. There are different models of these things.  Any pireps on Sandel's?  

since you don't have WAAS, the Sandel can be a cheap way to go. Heavy, labor intense, but cheap used hardware. It might cost an additional 1700 to get a Sandel upgraded if needed to support WAAS. That was the reason the sandel was ditched and an Aspen installed. 1700 software upgrade just to speak to a 430W seemed like a waste vs. all the added capabilities of the Aspen, like GPSS, ADHRS, redundant everything, etc. I don't doubt the Sandel will cost more than the Aspen to install, judging by the 30# of wire pulled out of the Bravo when removed.

[Yetti]

The technology is out there for a HUD with boxes to fly through for landing a plane...  Spending this much money to look at a computer screen is pretty ridiculous by any stretch of the imagination. 

[ArtVandelay]

I don't doubt the Sandel will cost more than the Aspen to install, judging by the 30# of wire pulled out of the Bravo when removed.

I don't think so, the Aspen requires and antenna to be installed which requires the interior to be removed, Plus AP connections, I got 1 quote for 60 hrs for the Aspen

[mike_elliott]

Wow...my shop did it in 2.5 days, one man in my hanger, and that included pulling out all the sandel stuff.

[Bob_Belville]

52 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

I don't think so, the Aspen requires and antenna to be installed which requires the interior to be removed, Plus AP connections, I got 1 quote for 60 hrs for the Aspen

I paid 60 hours install for a single box Aspen. It involved removing old Narco HSI,  old ADF indicator, moving the altimeter & vacuum AI, install the Aspen ACU inside aft fuselage and the Aspen RSM on top of aft fuselage and interconnecting Aspen to existing STEC50, K155 and new GTN750.

[N9453V]

4 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I paid 60 hours install for a single box Aspen. It involved removing old Narco HSI,  old ADF indicator, moving the altimeter & vacuum AI, install the Aspen ACU inside aft fuselage and the Aspen RSM on top of aft fuselage and interconnecting Aspen to existing STEC50, K155 and new GTN750.

Looking through my records, the KCS-55A install (before I bought the plane) was 35 hours, so I'm unsure why people are saying it's MORE labor intensive to install than the Aspen.

-Andrew

[mike_elliott]

4 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

I paid 60 hours install for a single box Aspen. It involved removing old Narco HSI,  old ADF indicator, moving the altimeter & vacuum AI, install the Aspen ACU inside aft fuselage and the Aspen RSM on top of aft fuselage and interconnecting Aspen to existing STEC50, K155 and new GTN750.

Bob, was that just to install the Aspen and remove the old, or was that counting making your new panel, and installing the new 750, JPI etc? That is way too much time for a simple aspen install, based on the 3 Aspen installs I have had done.

[Bob_Belville]

9 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Bob, was that just to install the Aspen and remove the old, or was that counting making your new panel, and installing the new 750, JPI etc? That is way too much time for a simple aspen install, based on the 3 Aspen installs I have had done.

Mike, maybe so. I negotiated but did not shop other shops. I wanted to be somewhere where I could drop in and inspect, interfere. I was there about every week. I hope they made money and stay in business, I go back to them for Garmin updates, IFR certifications, and anything else I need.

That was only part of the labor for my new panel. It included the scope of work I listed. The Aspen is flush mounted which is probably extra compared to some installs.

Total work involved 227 man hours. Design and build new panel, Aspen, 750, GMA 340, GTX 327, GDL 88, JPI EDM 930. Twin Lakes Avionics had the plane 10 weeks and had one man pretty much on it full time. OTOH, I've had zero glitches, zero call backs after 3-1/2 years. 

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, mike_elliott said:

Bob, was that just to install the Aspen and remove the old, or was that counting making your new panel, and installing the new 750, JPI etc? That is way too much time for a simple aspen install, based on the 3 Aspen installs I have had done.

You need to be a fuzzy math kind of guy to figure out how they did their fuzzy math. Between the multiple shops I received quotes from (estimates were treated differently), there was $8,000 difference between the low and the high quotes. This was for the installation  a dual Aspen, GTN 650, PSE 8000 BT, removal of 1 Nav/Com, 1 DME and a LORAN-C unit. When I started digging into the details, like all Cheap Bast#$ds should do, I found some of the higher quotes contained flat labor rate each line item instead of combining the efficiencies of having the plane opened and work already being done on the plane. I think at the time of the installation, I remember seeing a single Aspen unit install cost was $3,600, Their shop rate at the time was $90/hour. Therefore it equated to 40 labor hours. I got a significant reduction for the second unit and more rate concession on the rest of the stack.

[Godfather]

5 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

 I've had zero glitches, zero call backs after 3-1/2 years.

Bob, every time I see this picture I think to myself...man that is a clean panel.  They did a great job!

[Godfather]

Getting back to the original question my guess would be around 17.5 amu for a 650, 335, 340, and CDI installed.  Probably another 6 amu to upgrade to the 750 and 345 transponder.