O&N and bladders

[Bob_Belville]

In a FB post a couple of days one of our MS members from the Northeast (he can chime in if he wants to) informed me that O&N has discontinued operations. I tried to verify that but even though their phone system is operational they have not returned messages via phone of email.

I have freely passed on my excellent experience with their bladders to anyone weighing reseal vs. bladders. From time to time I have considered adding the extra 10 gallon bladders which were not available when mine were installed in 1997.

I believe O&N actually got their bladders from someone in CA so with my MS friend I wonder what arrangements might be necessary to install bladders if it turns out that O&N is permanently of of that business ... I don't know if O&N is the only holder of any required STCs. I do not know if the owner(s) of O&N has made any arrangements to sell their STCs etc. 

So... who knows what?

  

[Marauder]

Bob -- nothing appears out of norm on their website. I will call them today and see if I can get a quote on the extra two bladders.

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[Marauder]

Ok, I spoke to Michelle (@ O&N). Here is the scoop. They are in the process of selling their company to their employees. They are NOT going out of business. I am going to have them quote me the 10 gallon add-on.

She told me that they will continue to sell and provide service to the Mooney community.

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[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Bob -- nothing appears out of norm on their website. I will call them today and see if I can get a quote on the extra two bladders.

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Yeah, the web site looks fine although I don't think I saw anything posted that wasn't several years old. I call the K9N3 (Seamans) FBO after not being able to talk to O&N but they didn't answer either and I didn't call back. Hope you can get through. 

 

Just now, Marauder said:

Ok, I spoke to Michele. Here is the scoop. They are in the process of selling their company to their employees. They are NOT going out of business. I am going to have them quote me the 10 gallon add-on.

She told me that they will continue to sell and provide service to the Mooney community.

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That's fantastic. 

[steingar]

Yeah good news.  I hope someone can post up the quote for a couple 10 gallon bladders.  Might be some interest from this quarter.  But I'd hate to loose them, one of the only truly permanent solutions to our problems with wet wings.

[mike_elliott]

54 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Yeah, the web site looks fine although I don't think I saw anything posted that wasn't several years old. I call the K9N3 (Seamans) FBO after not being able to talk to O&N but they didn't answer either and I didn't call back. Hope you can get through. 

 

That's fantastic. 

That is good news for you guys who have bladders. You cant go back to wet tanks once you put rubbers in, and not if, but when they fail, you will need a source for replacement.

[TWinter]

The time is near for bladders or reseal for me. Still waiting on quotes from each option. Glad to see I will still have options. The places I have checked with have not mentioned anything about O&N having changes, as Chris posted, must just be internal. I'm still looking at options..

 

-Tom

[steingar]

51 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

That is good news for you guys who have bladders. You cant go back to wet tanks once you put rubbers in, and not if, but when they fail, you will need a source for replacement.

No you don't.  If the bladders fail, they can be pulled out through the holes through which they were put in and refurbished in situ for about an AMU (told to me by Joe Cole himself).  There are for all practical reasons the only truly permanent solution I know.

[DrBill]

They treated me great in 2011 with my bladder install.. The bulk of their business is turbine conversions for king airs.  Once a King air lands there for the conversion it can't get out without it !!

Bill

 

[mike_elliott]

45 minutes ago, steingar said:

No you don't.  If the bladders fail, they can be pulled out through the holes through which they were put in and refurbished in situ for about an AMU (told to me by Joe Cole himself).  There are for all practical reasons the only truly permanent solution I know.

Hummm...I would be leery of refurbishing them, as I would 20 year old fuel hoses. If they start leaking, cracking in one spot, they will likely fail soon elsewhere, just like wet tanks. Perhaps the manufacturer's reasoning for not installing them in the first place is in error. In any event, it is good to know a plane with bladders wont be orphaned because O&N ceasing to exist.

 

[jetdriven]

Mine are 26 years old, and still supple.  There are 1947 bonanzas flying around with original bladders too. I called that conpany out in California, that makes the bladders for O&N.  They refused to work with me for any repairs, stating I must work through O&N.  

[mooniac15u]

I've seen lots of posts warning of potential bladder issues ranging from corrosion to degrading material, but only from folks who don't have bladders in their Mooneys. 

Anyone with bladders had trouble with the material degrading?

[steingar]

25 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Hummm...I would be leery of refurbishing them, as I would 20 year old fuel hoses. If they start leaking, cracking in one spot, they will likely fail soon elsewhere, just like wet tanks. Perhaps the manufacturer's reasoning for not installing them in the first place is in error. In any event, it is good to know a plane with bladders wont be orphaned because O&N ceasing to exist.

 

What I was told is they can be refurbished to new condition in situ for not a lot of money.  The source was about as unimpeachable as I can imagine.  

[jetdriven]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

But if O&N went out of business ...

Mod works went out of business but all their STCs are unusable. 

[Piloto]

If you leave the plane exposed to the sun bladders will deteriorate like the seats on a car left in the sun. Boeing and most aircraft manufacturers switched to wet wing tanks over 40 years ago. Besides the weight and fuel capacity penalties with bladders there is the maintenance logistics. For a B707 you need to keep multiple different bladders in stock at the MROs. For current fleet (wet wings) all you need to keep is a few cans of sealant for all different models of planes. Bladders are also subject to availability after the manufacturer is gone or stop making them.

José  

[Mooneymite]

I probably have one of the older bladder installations.  Other than the AD that came out back around 2000, I haven't had any issues.

We're I to buy another Mooney, I would definitely want one with bladders.  No question of it.

[steingar]

8 minutes ago, Piloto said:

If you leave the plane exposed to the sun bladders will deteriorate like the seats on a car left in the sun. 

José  

Please forgive me, but this makes absolutely no sense, sorry.  Car seats are exposed to solar radiation which can damage the materials.  I can't imagine the bladders experiencing any sort of insolation through their painted aluminum skins.  They could be subject to thermal stresses, but then again so will the rest of the aircraft.

[Piloto]

2 minutes ago, steingar said:

Please forgive me, but this makes absolutely no sense, sorry.  Car seats are exposed to solar radiation which can damage the materials.  I can't imagine the bladders experiencing any sort of insolation through their painted aluminum skins.  They could be subject to thermal stresses, but then again so will the rest of the aircraft.

Just put a thermometer inside the wing. Because of the confined space and lack of air circulation you will notice the temperature is considerable higher than outside or even inside a car. Aluminum is a high conductor of heat. To reduce bladder deterioration leave them at least half full. Fuel helps to dissipate heat.

Because of moisture trapping in the bladder area it is recommended to have them pull out every five years to check for corrosion on the structure. This was done on D checks for the B707. 

José

[steingar]

21 minutes ago, Piloto said:

Just put a thermometer inside the wing. Because of the confined space and lack of air circulation you will notice the temperature is considerable higher than outside or even inside a car. Aluminum is a high conductor of heat. To reduce bladder deterioration leave them at least half full. Fuel helps to dissipate heat. 

José

Thermal stress I believe, honest.  But everything inside the aircraft will go through that.  The engine and its hoses, everything.

[mike_elliott]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

What I was told is they can be refurbished to new condition in situ for not a lot of money.  The source was about as unimpeachable as I can imagine.  

Back in my race car days, the fuel bladders were replaced every year if they made it that long  They are subject to the same deteriorating conditions as any fuel/oil lines, which also were replaced. As far as Joey being unimpeachable, he is a great mechanic, but I am not sure of his authority on bladders other than he does a good business as an O&N dealer putting them in. Bruce Jaeger and other well known MSC's would disagree with bladders being the best solution to counter your Joey and raise you one. But we digress, if bladders make you happy, I am happy for you. As far as a permanent solution, you do relegate your Mooney to only having bladders as a fuel tank solution permanently, a course the factory chose not to take for reasons that make sense. 

[Mooneymite]

31 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

..... to counter your Joey and raise you one. 

Here we go again!  

Let me say this one more time.

As Mooney owners we face a problem with leaking tanks.  

HAPPILY, THERE ARE TWO GREAT SOLUTIONS!

Re-seal and bladders.

Pick the one you like.  Everyone wins, there are no losers.  

 

[mooniac15u]

MS is full of all kinds of examples of corrosion and other issues with our Mooneys and I'm still waiting for the first one with an actual significant bladder issue. 

Are racing bladders made of the same material?  I would guess their purpose is puncture protection. 

[1524J]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

HAPPILY, THERE ARE TWO GREAT SOLUTIONS!

 

 

From personal experience, I'd be happier if the previous owner would have would've picked one of the great solutions before I bought the plane. Now that it's my responsibility, I'm not sure I'm think either are great!

[Mooneymite]

Just now, 1524J said:

From personal experience, I'd be happier if the previous owner would have would've picked one of the great solutions before I bought the plane. Now that it's my responsibility, I'm not sure I'm think either are great!

But....you have freedom of choice!

Too bad the choices aren't  free.

[steingar]

Still wondering about the additional 10 gal bladders.  Best way to make an airplane faster is to be able to skip fuel stops.