62 M20C nose gear shimmy? Tank Seal Cost?

[Dave Colangelo]

As my search for a plane continues I have come across a pretty cheap M20C not terribly far from me. I spoke with the owner to get the low down on the plane. The engine is at a little over 1300 hours with compression above 75 on all the cylinders. The paint is not great but the interior is pretty solid, the avionics are new-ish but its just a nav/com stack (I would prefer a 430). Anyway after some talking the two major issues he pointed out are 

Nose Gear Shimmy under load (takeoff). He says there are some bushings up there that may need to be replaced, is this a common problem with the early C models? Whats the fix? Cost? 

The tanks need to be resealed, both he and the previous owner have patched them but it sounds like they need a full on reseal. What kind of cost am I looking at for a reseal? What is the blader conversion cost? I know this is a big job, how long should I expect the plane to be down for? 

 

Regards

Dave 

[carusoam]

A good Pre-purchase inspection will answer your questions with an amazing amount of work detail.  It will also point out any flaws you may want to know about prior to buying.

1) Nose gear does wear every fifty years or so.  LASAR has refurbed parts and pricing on their site.  Your local mechanic can install it with the proper MM.  Change ou the rubber discs while you are in there.  A few AMU being spent.

2) there are a few suppliers for resealing tanks and adding bladders.  Roughly $10k

3) new nice paint Roughly $10k

4) engine OH roughly $10K

5) New WAAS GTN roughly $10K

6) New Mooney roughly $500k

The search function at the top will reveal a lot of detail of people doing similar things like you.  Sometimes options and local suppliers you haven't thought of will become visible.

Finding a 'cheap' plane and sinking chunks of 10amu in it may not be as cost effective as buying one that is more turn key.

Keep in mind, I started with a cheap C in y2k...

Best regards,

-a-

[Dave Colangelo]

Ill take a look at the parts from LASAR. One thing that drew me to this plane was that it was a bit of a blank slate. Flyable as is and priced so that I could set it up how I wanted in the cockpit (the panel is already laid out as I would do it but the com stack could use some freshening). I'm going  to keep watching the add and see if the owner drops the price at all which would make it really doable. Im going to call Air Mods and get some info on what the work will cost as well (since they seem to be the local mooney shop in my area). 

- The disks were done with in the past 5 years although he did tell me the rings on the top and bottom of the disks could stand to be replaced. 

Dave

[carusoam]

AirMods is good for a PPI.  They can set up lists for AW vs want to have.  Don't be initially surprised at how much everything costs.  They are putting a list together to match what you ask for.  Air worthiness issues can be big financial killers.  But that is why you use a qualified mechanic for the PPI...

best regard,

-a-

[carl]

On 3/10/2016 at 2:05 PM, carusoam said:

I started with a cheap C in y2k...

•  Ha, I started with a cheap E in 2015 , 

  There is a couple of different types of pilots , the one that wants to fly and do not work on the plane.

  And the one that enjoys working on the plane and like to fly every now and then .

 

   You state you found a cheap plane, then you should be in the enjoy working on planes group.

[Dave Colangelo]

I grew up working on cars (most air cooled 911's hence my real desire for an M20 PFM) and I would love to work on the plane. My main issue right now is a hanger to work on it in. Im mainly looking to tie it down so I would prefer a plane in nice working order but this plane was so reasonably priced it seemed doable. In reality I know if I get a plane im going to want to fly it (although I would really love to work on it and really get to know the plane). At another juncture in my life I would love to restore an old mooney mite. 

 

Regards

Dave 

[Hank]

Adding bladders costs significantly more than a strip and reseal. I resealed my C several years ago, and a buddy put bladders in his C within a couple of weeks of the same time. He paid about 50% more than I did. The prime resellers seem to be Wet Wingologists (where I went, KFXE), Paul Beck in Minnesota, Don Maxwell at KGGG uses Paul's process, and now there is a newcomer, Houston Tank Specialists. Unless you're in the west coast, there's someone in Oregon (Troutdale?) who may be an MSC. Midwest Mooney in south Illinois used to reseal tanks with a proprietary polyurethane process, but I think they've quit doing it. It was pricey, though. Bladders may be above 10 AMU; reseal should be much less.

Paint seems to start at 10 AMU, with pretty much no ceiling, depending on paint scheme, color selection, striping scheme, metallics, clear coat, etc.

A Garmin 430W can probably be bought and installed for about 10 AMU, or a GTN 650 for ~3 more. I'd go with the newer one.

Aspens start around a similar 10 AMU for one, if you can deal with little numbers and no needles.

There is no limit to the number of upgrades you can do to your Mooney. Digital tach. Engine monitor. Auto pilot. GPSS. New interior. Leather seats and yokes. New carpet. New windows. Soon to be a new Vintage Mooney cowling to eliminate the doghouse, the carb chin and the guppy mouth air intake. Oil cooler relocation. Brake rotation. Chrome hubcaps. Polished spinner. LED lights all around. Flap gap seals.

Plenty of opportunities to make the plane your own. Add a Carb Temp Gage if there isn't already one there, it comes in handy sometimes (you never need it until you need it).

Have fun, enjoy the search, learn lots and post pictures when you find a keeper!

[Shadrach]

7 hours ago, Dave Colangelo said:

I grew up working on cars (most air cooled 911's hence my real desire for an M20 PFM) and I would love to work on the plane. My main issue right now is a hanger to work on it in. Im mainly looking to tie it down so I would prefer a plane in nice working order but this plane was so reasonably priced it seemed doable. In reality I know if I get a plane im going to want to fly it (although I would really love to work on it and really get to know the plane). At another juncture in my life I would love to restore an old mooney mite. 

 

Regards

Dave 

Welcome Dave! I think maybe I've seen your posts elsewhere. Perhaps Rennlist, Pelican or the 986forum?

[Dave Colangelo]

1 hour ago, Shadrach said:

Welcome Dave! I think maybe I've seen your posts elsewhere. Perhaps Rennlist, Pelican or the 986forum?

I posed about the PFM a while back on Pelican (same user name as here) just out of curiosity (when I started flying), the PFM is what turned me to look at Mooneys in the first place. I see your based in the the north east, you may have seen some of the P-Car gatherings i set up around the area. I have had my 78 SC for about 8 years now as well as some of the water breathers in the mix.  

 

Regards 

Dave

[Dave Colangelo]

5 hours ago, Hank said:

Adding bladders costs significantly more than a strip and reseal. I resealed my C several years ago, and a buddy put bladders in his C within a couple of weeks of the same time. He paid about 50% more than I did. The prime resellers seem to be Wet Wingologists (where I went, KFXE), Paul Beck in Minnesota, Don Maxwell at KGGG uses Paul's process, and now there is a newcomer, Houston Tank Specialists. Unless you're in the west coast, there's someone in Oregon (Troutdale?) who may be an MSC. Midwest Mooney in south Illinois used to reseal tanks with a proprietary polyurethane process, but I think they've quit doing it. It was pricey, though. Bladders may be above 10 AMU; reseal should be much less.

Paint seems to start at 10 AMU, with pretty much no ceiling, depending on paint scheme, color selection, striping scheme, metallics, clear coat, etc.

A Garmin 430W can probably be bought and installed for about 10 AMU, or a GTN 650 for ~3 more. I'd go with the newer one.

Aspens start around a similar 10 AMU for one, if you can deal with little numbers and no needles.

There is no limit to the number of upgrades you can do to your Mooney. Digital tach. Engine monitor. Auto pilot. GPSS. New interior. Leather seats and yokes. New carpet. New windows. Soon to be a new Vintage Mooney cowling to eliminate the doghouse, the carb chin and the guppy mouth air intake. Oil cooler relocation. Brake rotation. Chrome hubcaps. Polished spinner. LED lights all around. Flap gap seals.

Plenty of opportunities to make the plane your own. Add a Carb Temp Gage if there isn't already one there, it comes in handy sometimes (you never need it until you need it).

Have fun, enjoy the search, learn lots and post pictures when you find a keeper!

Silly question, what is an AMU? (I assume its $1000) 

Is it true that avionics are typically cheaper when bought in the plane? 

Considering the cost of the plane I found it looks like it could be a deal but a close call at that. Based on the work it needs Im going to pass for now and see what becomes of it (if it really does not sell and the price drops it may be worth it). I think sealed tanks may be added to my list of items to look for now as well. 

 

Regards 

Dave

[Hank]

Yes, an Aviation Monetary Unit is a thousand bucks.

Avionics are le$$ expen$ive to purcha$e installed in an airplane. You will generally save the installation cost, and often some of the purchase price, since you are buying used electronics. This also applies to autopilots.

Recently sealed tanks are nice. Most now offer a seven year warranty; that's what I have. It's pretty easy to tell if they are leaking, the stains are very difficult to completely remove.

Don't rush into a purchase, and be sure to get a good PPI from an A&P who knows Mooneys well.

[carl]

Super !

 Now I want a Porsche

Your in the Philadelphia area I take it, Or Trenton  NJ ?

[Shadrach]

8 hours ago, Dave Colangelo said:

I posed about the PFM a while back on Pelican (same user name as here) just out of curiosity (when I started flying), the PFM is what turned me to look at Mooneys in the first place. I see your based in the the north east, you may have seen some of the P-Car gatherings i set up around the area. I have had my 78 SC for about 8 years now as well as some of the water breathers in the mix.  

 

Regards 

Dave

Looks like a great event. I know I've seen your name somewhere. I aspire to have an air cooled car (preferably a silver 993 turbo) in the future. For now, the Boxster S fits in my hangar in front of the left wing of the Mooney.

[Dave Colangelo]

3 hours ago, carl said:

Super !

 Now I want a Porsche

Your in the Philadelphia area I take it, Or Trenton  NJ ?

Philadelphia (Center City (right next to at least one helipad which is cool... at... 2am....)) 

[Dave Colangelo]

2 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Looks like a great event. I know I've seen your name somewhere. I aspire to have an air cooled car (preferably a silver 993 turbo) in the future. For now, the Boxster S fits in my hangar in front of the left wing of the Mooney.

Its turned into quite a good time, if you are around next year you should consider driving up (we accept P-Cars of all types). 

[Dave Colangelo]

11 hours ago, Hank said:

Yes, an Aviation Monetary Unit is a thousand bucks.

Avionics are le$$ expen$ive to purcha$e installed in an airplane. You will generally save the installation cost, and often some of the purchase price, since you are buying used electronics. This also applies to autopilots.

Recently sealed tanks are nice. Most now offer a seven year warranty; that's what I have. It's pretty easy to tell if they are leaking, the stains are very difficult to completely remove.

Don't rush into a purchase, and be sure to get a good PPI from an A&P who knows Mooneys well.

I think im backing away from this one plane its just to much of a hole, im still very much gathering the facts on these early birds as well as getting to know the local shop (air mods) which every one is saying is a solid mooney shop so thats nice to know. If enough time passes before I find something and the finances change I may end up in a J. 

 

Dave

[glafaille]

Dave:

I have been looking for a C model myself for about 5 months now.  Concerning the long running debate over tank re-seal vs bladders; I have personally inspected a plane that had one of the well known re-seal shops perform a complete strip and seal.  Although the plane likely left the facility without leaks, the next three annuals involved fixing fuel leaks in one or both tanks.  Furthermore the plane was still leaking when I inspected it.  When I asked the owner why he didn't take advantage of the warranty to get the tanks fixed, he replied that it was "just too much trouble and too much time to fly the plane to the facility to get it fixed".

Moral of the story?  If you don't live next to the shop that sealed your tanks OR the warranty doesn't cover the cost of travel to the warranty location, you may be better off with bladders. 

I have yet to see a plane with bladders AND fuel leaks.

[Dave Colangelo]

59 minutes ago, glafaille said:

Dave:

I have been looking for a C model myself for about 5 months now.  Concerning the long running debate over tank re-seal vs bladders; I have personally inspected a plane that had one of the well known re-seal shops perform a complete strip and seal.  Although the plane likely left the facility without leaks, the next three annuals involved fixing fuel leaks in one or both tanks.  Furthermore the plane was still leaking when I inspected it.  When I asked the owner why he didn't take advantage of the warranty to get the tanks fixed, he replied that it was "just too much trouble and too much time to fly the plane to the facility to get it fixed".

Moral of the story?  If you don't live next to the shop that sealed your tanks OR the warranty doesn't cover the cost of travel to the warranty location, you may be better off with bladders. 

I have yet to see a plane with bladders AND fuel leaks.

This is good to know, was the plane subject to anything else extreme that would have caused the leaks? 

 

Dave

[carusoam]

Go with the one that sends the tech as part of the warranty.  Some warranties work with the local shop to fix an issue first.

keep in mind bladders can leak too.  A mechanic can be called to fix them as well.

Fuel tanks are an imperfect part of airplane ownership still.  At least the newer sealant materials and procedures make it a real science to get done.  The newer solvents remove the old sealant properly.

Good luck with whichever you choose.

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

22 hours ago, Dave Colangelo said:

I think im backing away from this one plane its just to much of a hole, im still very much gathering the facts on these early birds as well as getting to know the local shop (air mods) which every one is saying is a solid mooney shop so thats nice to know. If enough time passes before I find something and the finances change I may end up in a J. 

 

Dave

Dave- I think that's the right decision to give up on this one.  There are enough good Cs out there that you'll find one. You may have to travel a bit- I got mine from SC, with prebuy done in GA. I think I've asked most of the questions you're asking now and made some mistakes during purchase of my C in Dec 2014.   We are neighbors in Center City and I keep my plane at KPNE- PM me if you'd like to chat sometime.

[Dave Colangelo]

25 minutes ago, DXB said:

Dave- I think that's the right decision to give up on this one.  There are enough good Cs out there that you'll find one. You may have to travel a bit- I got mine from SC, with prebuy done in GA. I think I've asked most of the questions you're asking now and made some mistakes during purchase of my C in Dec 2014.   We are neighbors in Center City and I keep my plane at KPNE- PM me if you'd like to chat sometime.

pm sent 

[glafaille]

Dave:

To answer your question, I don't believe the plane was subjected to anything unusual that may have caused the fuel leaks.  

Mooneys seem to be prone to fuel leaks.  All old planes have flaws that show themselves only after years of age, and fuel leaks is one common to this aircraft type.  Other makes of planes have other "warts", some much more severe than fuel leaks.

I think that sealing tanks is a very imprecise repair.  You are essentially sealing all of the structural joints and rivets in that part of the wing with a liquid sealant.  And doing it through a small hole with very limited visibility and poor light.  It's probably very easy to miss a spot, a joint or a rivet head causing a leak to develop "down the road".

It just seems to me that if you are going to spend the money on a complete repair, a bladder system offers the best chance for a long term low maintenance solution.  If a leak does develop they are easily removed and repaired.

Many other GA airplanes have bladders with few problems.  Cessnas have bladders as do beechcrafts.  Pipers have wet wings but their tanks are a one piece sealed unit that are removed for repair.  They are completely disassembled, repaired, and re-installed, all for a fraction of what it costs to seal a Mooney or install bladders.

As a potential buyer who has inspected almost a dozen Mooneys, I can tell you that over 1/2 had evidence of current or past fuel leaks.  Of the rest, most had a history of fuel leak repairs in the logbooks.  One had been repaired repeatedly AFTER a complete strip and seal, and was leaking still.  None that I have inspected with bladders have had problems since installing the bladders.

In my search, I look for planes with bladders and if I find one I like without them, I discount my offer.  Might be one of the reasons I still don't have a plane!

[glafaille]

Here is a funny truth concerning Mooney fuel leaks.

Planes that don't leak probably won't, until they do.  Planes that leak will continue to leak until something expensive is done to make them not leak.  

[Dave Colangelo]

On this fuel leak question, just how bad are the leaks typically? We all know that flying is all about fuel planning and Im getting a little hesitant to take off and lose 5 gallons mid flight. Im sure the leaks vary in severity but generally speaking are we talking about a small drip or a pretty steady situation? Are they typically found by noticing fuel level decreases or are they more often noticed by the ambient smell of fuel? 

I have seen the piper tanks a few times in the shop during my training and like the design but the archer I fly simply cant keep up with an M20C!

Dave 

[Andy95W]

The amount of fuel lost is measured in drips, not gallons.  Inconsequential from a fuel usage standpoint, but messy looking.  If the leak allows fumes into the cabin, then potentially dangerous and required to be repaired.  

It's in the maintenance manual: