Intermittent Controllability problem

[timpercarpio]

Starting 9 months ago, my partner and I have experienced with increasing frequency an intermittent uncommanded roll to the right when leveling out for cruise. This roll will keep going unless counteracted by considerable opposite aileron and will lessen as we slow down for the pattern. 

We have been to two avionics shops thinking the problem is the roll server, but it checks out.  Also the problem now happens with the AP off. We have also taken it to an MSC, and the airframe, controls, landing gear was inspected.  Again, the intermittent nature of the problem makes this a less likely source.

Has anybody heard of such a problem or experienced something similar?

 

[Marauder]

Starting 9 months ago, my partner and I have experienced with increasing frequency an intermittent uncommanded roll to the right when leveling out for cruise. This roll will keep going unless counteracted by considerable opposite aileron and will lessen as we slow down for the pattern. 

We have been to two avionics shops thinking the problem is the roll server, but it checks out.  Also the problem now happens with the AP off. We have also taken it to an MSC, and the airframe, controls, landing gear was inspected.  Again, the intermittent nature of the problem makes this a less likely source.

Has anybody heard of such a problem or experienced something similar?

 

Tim are you able to confirm both flaps are fully retracted? Also, is the ball centered? When I was having issues with my flaps being retracted, I noticed a rolling tendency due to the flaps still being deployed (I had not reached cruise) but it was what alerted me that something wasn't right.

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[chrisk]

I'd put a camera on the bottom of the wing to see what is going on underneath.  

[N201MKTurbo]

I would suspect a loose gear door. Put it on jacks, put them half way up so the links are unloaded and inspect everything.

[timpercarpio]

Chris,. Yes the flaps are fully retracted. We flew today and everything was perfect.

[timpercarpio]

Chrisk. We're thinking about a camera. Any recommendations?  Also, how do you attach a camera?

[N201MKTurbo]

Are you seeing much yaw when this happens? Is the ball centered?

Have you tried cycling the gear? See if the roll goes away with the gear down? Or stays away after it is retracted?

Have you tried cycling the flaps when it happens?

 

[timpercarpio]

We had the gear doors checked at a MSC and were told it looked good.  We did not look at the ball when this was happening so I don't have that answer, but we will check it next time.  When we slow down it seems to go away. By the  time we're on downwind, it feels normal again so cycling the flaps won't tell us anything.  We're suspicious of the gear doors because it only happens at higher airspeeds.  It's the intermittent occurrence that has us puzzled.  We flew several times today and nothing happened.  I'm going to look into mounting a camera to watch the gear doors.

[N201MKTurbo]

I realize that slowing down minimizes the problem, but cycling the gear or flaps and then speeding back up, may make it go away and then you have a clue as to what system is causing it.

[Marauder]

We had the gear doors checked at a MSC and were told it looked good.  We did not look at the ball when this was happening so I don't have that answer, but we will check it next time.  When we slow down it seems to go away. By the  time we're on downwind, it feels normal again so cycling the flaps won't tell us anything.  We're suspicious of the gear doors because it only happens at higher airspeeds.  It's the intermittent occurrence that has us puzzled.  We flew several times today and nothing happened.  I'm going to look into mounting a camera to watch the gear doors.

GoPro is th easiest way to go. I have a camera you can borrow and a mount you can use. It sticks to the airframe can be removed without damage to the paint.

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[BillC]

 

Something very similar happened to my old 201. On mine the left flap was not fully retracting by only a few degrees. It looked retracted from the cockpit. I only noticed it in cruise when I had to hold left aileron to stop the right roll. It only happened intermittently. When on the ground I found the left flap was not quite fully retracted. By lifting on the 'extended' flap it popped past the rivet and fully retracted. On closer examination I found the bottom trailing edge of the wing, where it meets the flap, had a slight delamination between the rivets and was catching on a flap rivet. 

Please keep us posted.

 

Edited March 1, 2016 by BillC

[mooneyflyfast]

Here's what I found causing my pulling to the right (after carpet installation).

 

[Bob - S50]

You said it happens when leveling off.  Does that mean there is no problem during the climb?  From other posts it sounds like once it happens, it stays that way, correct?

If that is the case, I'm wondering what happens during level off that would change something.  You gently push on the yoke to lower the nose.  That reduces the download on the tail.  Could it be that the reduced load on the tail allows something to shift?

If the problem persists after you have leveled off (not just during the process of leveling off), have you tried walking the rudder a bit to see if it goes away?  During the flights when the problem does not happen, if you walk the rudders a bit does it create the problem?

[timpercarpio]

Thanks, these are all good suggestions and we'll try them soon. We're going flying again tomorrow and we'll see what happens.  The last couple of flights everything was working normally.  

Bob-S50...when it happens, it seems to occur when we level off, but it may begin during the climb, I'll just have to pay more attention.  I'll also try walking the rudders.

[timpercarpio]

BillC...we took off today with flaps is the take off position and watched carefully as the flaps retracted. Sure enough, the left flap did not completely retract and we had the right turn tendency. We slowed down and put full flaps down as if landing and then retracted them. Once again the left flap did not fully retract and we still had the right turn tendency.  It was just a short flight to a MSC, Weber Aircraft.  Dorn checked it on the ground and found a small piece of metal on the flap that was distorted and catching on the trailing edge of the wing. I forgot to take a picture, sorry. He straightened it out and put a piece of Teflon tape over it. It solved the problem very easily. Bill, thank you for pointing us in the right direction.

[gsxrpilot]

On March 1, 2016 at 11:04 AM, timpercarpio said:

Chrisk. We're thinking about a camera. Any recommendations?  Also, how do you attach a camera?

I'd recommend a GoPro. You can either use a GoPro sticky mount, or a GoPro suction mount. The suction mount might come loose if you have a huge altitude change. But it should be fine for pattern work. I've used the suction mount under my wing a couple of times when I was looking for a problem. It's easy to move around if needed.

[bradp]

On 3/2/2016 at 9:31 PM, mooneyflyfast said:

Here's what I found causing my pulling to the right (after carpet installation).

 

I had this exact same thing happen after I got the plane back from annual last year.  I took the foot panel off and haven't yet put the new one back on, but when I do it will be trimmed to stay away from the rudder pedal.   

Glad to hear that you found your issue.

+1 for Dorn - good guy & Mooney guru.  Just got off the phone with him a few minutes ago.  Sometimes the simple things.... 

[mooneyflyfast]

On March 3, 2016 at 3:15 PM, bradp said:

I had this exact same thing happen after I got the plane back from annual last year.  I took the foot panel off and haven't yet put the new one back on, but when I do it will be trimmed to stay away from the rudder pedal.   

I straightened mine using a heat gun then put it back adding another screw at the front.  I had to remove the copilot seat in order to get under there to work on it.

[Steve Dietrich]

I had periodic uncommanded full roll with my KFC -200 equipped K .   Would not release even with AP dumped other than by forcing the control even further.  Happened about 4 times in 100 hours and several local shop visits.

When I had the airplane back at Mooney they took the servo out and had it rebuilt .     Worked perfectly thereafter. 

if you are getting it with the ap disengaged (dumped ) it might be a wiring problem  -

If there is a saving grace it is that the full roll is very noticeable  vs gradual roll

[Steve Dietrich]

I assume you have looked at the ailerons for full deflection

[BillC]

On March 2, 2016 at 2:51 PM, timpercarpio said:

BillC...we took off today with flaps is the take off position and watched carefully as the flaps retracted. Sure enough, the left flap did not completely retract and we had the right turn tendency. We slowed down and put full flaps down as if landing and then retracted them. Once again the left flap did not fully retract and we still had the right turn tendency.  It was just a short flight to a MSC, Weber Aircraft.  Dorn checked it on the ground and found a small piece of metal on the flap that was distorted and catching on the trailing edge of the wing. I forgot to take a picture, sorry. He straightened it out and put a piece of Teflon tape over it. It solved the problem very easily. Bill, thank you for pointing us in the right direction.

Glad everything worked out, Tim

BillC and Cora