Is Mooney suitable for learning how to fly?

[anthonydesmet]

HC,

I specifically moved my airplane from Norfolk International to Chesapeake Regional so I could have Jim Parkman who owns Epix Aviation work on my plane.  He and his mechanics are good honest people.  We did an owner assisted annual last July that was a great experience.  They are up to speed on all mooney AD's, issues and pitfalls. They know a lot about mooney's but are not a mooney certified center.  However, there have been a couple times that I have called up either Mooney themselves or Don Maxwell and have gotten specific answers for issues for me and my mechanic.  During those times also Jim has never charged me for labor since I am doing the research and maintenance directing.  Another place I have used is George McClellan out at Suffolk.  He is also very proficient and works on a friend's 231.  Interesting fact....his father received his pilot training and license from Orville Wright. He has a bronzed imprint of the actual license dated in 1921 if I remember correctly.

 

For your pre-buy however I would try as best you can to have Don Maxwell or one of the other MSC's do it if logistics workout.  I am sure once you narrow down your mooney and location there will be plenty of folks here with a quality pre-buy facility but you can never go wrong with DMax.  I plan on having every 3rd annual or so done by him.  

 

If you need a Mooney CFI for sign off or a ferry pilot when you get closer let me know because I also have a few names.  If you are still around Northern Va you can also hit up George Perry who works for AOPA for additional info.  He is a mooney owner (posts a lot here but not sure if he is a CFI). He and I were in The Navy F-14/FA-18 community together for the last 26 years.

[HC]

F14, that's top gun, "Take my breath away!", isn't it?  That's one of my favorite movie.

Yes, I am in NoVA and will check with Mr. Perry.

By the way, three different M20K 252s interested me among those in the market. May I ask your opinions on these, if it's not violating the mooney community rule?

1) N252TM. private seller: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1986/Mooney/M20K+252TSE/1588380.html

2) N402LA. LASAR: http://www.lasar.com/w/id/249/new-plane-details.asp

3) N39252. Island Aircraft Sales: http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=160633&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=22029548&dealerid=

I would really appreciate anybody's opinion who knows or is familiar with these planes.

Thank you so much in advance.

Edited February 2, 2016 by HC

[carusoam]

Learning to fly in a 252?

Kind of like letting your young kids roam around the streets of Manhattan on their own.  They will learn the ins and outs of crossing a street.

Is that what you meant?  

Are you receiving air force level training?  It's a job and an adventure...  Are you training while in an aviation college? Or are you getting ordinary training on weekends while you work all week?

What's the rush?

Having a powerful machine with a low level of experience is not necessarily good for your health.  Strongly Consider a more conservative and well thought out approach.

Best regards,

-a-

 

[chrisk]

9 hours ago, HC said:

F14, that's top gun, "Take my breath away!", isn't it?  That's one of my favorite movie.

Yes, I am in NoVA and will check with Mr. Perry.

By the way, three different M20K 252s interested me among those in the market. May I ask your opinions on these, if it's not violating the mooney community rule?

1) N252TM. private seller: http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/Single+Engine+Piston/1986/Mooney/M20K+252TSE/1588380.html

2) N402LA. LASAR: http://www.lasar.com/w/id/249/new-plane-details.asp

3) N39252. Island Aircraft Sales: http://www.aso.com/listings/spec/ViewAd.aspx?id=160633&listingType=true&IsInternal=True&pagingNo=1&searchId=22029548&dealerid=

I would really appreciate anybody's opinion who knows or is familiar with these planes.

Thank you so much in advance.

My advice on buying a plane is:  1) get one that has been flying often in the recent past.  2) get a pre-purchase inspection by a competent and well respected Mooney savvy mechanic.  All planes are expensive to fix.  A neglected plane is very expensive to fix.   A neglected and corroded plane is economically beyond repair. 3) Buy the nicest airframe you can get.  4) get the best avionics (radio, GPS, autopilot) you can.

As for buying a plane like a 252 without having soloed:   You really don't even know what to look for in a plane.   The 252 is a serious cross country machine.  To make proper use of it, it should be IFR equipped.  It works best at higher altitudes where you will need oxygen (and training).  I don't view it as any more difficult to fly than any other Mooney, and maybe easier than a Johnson Bar Mooney.    --It will however be an expensive airplane to learn on.  It's a turbo and that means you really must pay close attention to temperatures and engine operation in general.  As a student pilot, you will experience task overload.  I can see you forgetting the cowl flaps, having the engine leaned to much and giving it full throttle for a climb.  2 minutes later the engine will be at red line temperatures.  Another 10 minutes of that an you may be buying a new engine or experiencing a real engine out landing.   --anyway the only 252 specific advice I can give is to check the useful load.  From this subtract 6 pounds per gallon of fuel.  It's what you are left with.   --So a plane with an 800 lbs useful load and 100 gallon long range tanks turns into a single place if the tanks are full.  For a typically 252, figure 450 lbs of fuel with full tanks.   

 

[HC]

Yes, I totally agree with you, Carusom and ChrisK.

 

I might be in kind of a first buyer fever stage.

Even though I have not soloed yet, I am thinking about M20K 252 Turbocharged model manufactured between 1986-1989 time period.

 

I first thought that I might buy C-150 to spend tons of time most economically until I get IFR and further training.

Then, I thought that if I eventually want a plane like M20K 252, why not spending time in training in Mooney model, familiarizing myself with Mooney specific characteristics, such as special characteristics in landing, etc.

So my first eye was on old Mooney, such as M20C, manufactured between 1962-1977, which varies a lot in price, airframe status, engine status and equipment, etc.

I realized that if I double the price of well-equipped and well-maintained M20C model, I may get the long engine hour M20K with old avionics.

 

I may be trained with the old avionics because I want to get familiar with steam gauges anyway, as I always tell my sons that you have to learn how to drive without GPS in the beginning.

Well, eventually I may have to update avionics later, overhaul the engine, as necessary, etc.

 

The reasoning behind preference to M20K over M20C in this irrationally early stage is the time and efforts to sell M20C and buy another, once hopefully I outgrow old machine.

 And so on, on and on.

 

Reality check, avoid impulsivity, that's what I hear from you all.

 

Thank you so much for all of you and blessings!!!

[N201MKTurbo]

14 hours ago, carusoam said:

Kind of like letting your young kids roam around the streets of Manhattan on their own.  

 

Last time I was in Manhattan I marveled at the young kids roaming the streets and using public transportation without assistance. I saw a grade school get out and the teacher lead a group of kids to a public bus where they all got on, paid their fares and sat down. I assume they all knew where to get off and walk home. These kids looked as young as kindergarten. This was not a poor neighborhood, the kids were dressed very well. There were no parents there to pick them up.

I think most places coddle kids way too much these days.

[carusoam]

HC,

Read all the threads like getting tail wheel training or a sea plane rating or aerobatic training.

There is a never ending strive for getting as much aviation experience over a broad spectrum of types.  Becoming a better pilot comes with acquiring various skills. Sometimes it is helpful to get the experience in different planes.

By only flying one airplane, you would miss out on much of the feel that a plane gives. Specifically when the feeling just isn't right.

The one time you may really benefit from training in one plane is getting your IR using the plane you have already.  This is best but  the plane needs to be equipped properly to make sense of the idea.

In other words... you will get a lot of things out of learning in a trainer that you will not get out of flying in your own Mooney.

In the end, 100 hours goes by pretty quickly in a year or two.  Faster than some people have been able to find a plane that they are looking to buy.

find the thread where everyone gives the time they recorded flying in 2015.  Dallas, the Mooney pilot, not the city, listed hours and ratings he has gone after with his Mooney.  

When you get to the long X-country portion of the PP training is the time to start picking the type of plane you will want to have.  This will be based on your own experience instead of things you have read about.

For many, the training never ends.  MAPA is an excellent resource for the PPP training...

Best regards,

-a-

201MKT, It is amazing what is normal risk for some people.  My wife's family lived on the edge of little Italy and China town in NYC. Walked to school without assistance.  Mom and Dad were both working.  The kids had to take care of themselves.  My kids grew-up coddled by comparison.

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. If you decide to do it anyways, do it knowingly. 

[HC]

Carusoam, 

Thanks so much for your kind advice.

I will keep that in mind that training never ends.

Actually, tail wheel and acrobat training was on my list after I get the PPL.  Flying different airplanes and feeling the nuance should be a right way of enjoying aviation.

Blessings and thanks so much, all.

P.S. Will update you as I progress.

 

[Steve Dietrich]

 

Your insurance company is probably going to be OK with the program so long as there is an instructor with you.  The insurance company may require 500 hours and an instrument ticket for you to solo.  However there is a lot to learn that's very expensive to do in a turbo Mooney, including landings, departure stalls and extensive slow flight.  

If you were buying a turbo with say 1,100 hours on it and it's not had a top you are probably going to need a top before TPO so thrashing it through 100 touch and go landings is not a big deal, same with  departure stalls.  However with a new motor or new top  you are likely to damage stuff and add an extra top OH .  

Pilot workload is substantially higher with the LB and GB motors but much simpler with the MB.  With both you are one big bounce away from a $30K-$50K repair 

There's no purpose served in practicing landings until you can achieve precise speed and slope control at 65-70 knots and preferably slower on a sunny calm day. 

I think there's a lot of similarity between stick and rudder flying and sailing.  Sailors who jumped into large boats after their IPO are generally inferior to those who started in small, very sensitive boats.  With pilots there is a growing problem as more and more time is spent playing with toys than learning how to fly the airplane. 

If someone did buy a turbo Mooney to train in I think they should budget half their hours in other airplanes. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Shadrach]

On February 2, 2016 at 2:58 PM, HC said:

Yes, I totally agree with you, Carusom and ChrisK.

 

I might be in kind of a first buyer fever stage.

Even though I have not soloed yet, I am thinking about M20K 252 Turbocharged model manufactured between 1986-1989 time period.

 

I first thought that I might buy C-150 to spend tons of time most economically until I get IFR and further training.

Then, I thought that if I eventually want a plane like M20K 252, why not spending time in training in Mooney model, familiarizing myself with Mooney specific characteristics, such as special characteristics in landing, etc.

So my first eye was on old Mooney, such as M20C, manufactured between 1962-1977, which varies a lot in price, airframe status, engine status and equipment, etc.

I realized that if I double the price of well-equipped and well-maintained M20C model, I may get the long engine hour M20K with old avionics.

 

I may be trained with the old avionics because I want to get familiar with steam gauges anyway, as I always tell my sons that you have to learn how to drive without GPS in the beginning.

Well, eventually I may have to update avionics later, overhaul the engine, as necessary, etc.

 

The reasoning behind preference to M20K over M20C in this irrationally early stage is the time and efforts to sell M20C and buy another, once hopefully I outgrow old machine.

 And so on, on and on.

 

Reality check, avoid impulsivity, that's what I hear from you all.

 

Thank you so much for all of you and blessings!!!

I would not put a turbocharged engine through primary training. It's the exact opposite of what it was designed for. An (I)O360? Sure. The big understressed 6 cyl NA Continental in an Ovation? No biggie. A TSIO360? Sorry, but I can't think of a worse choice for pilot training. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Shadrach

[plumberpilot]

To your original question:

Yes a Mooney is an excellent first plane to fly especially if you think you're going to fly one after you get licensed. I'm a helicopter pilot who bought a M20J MSE with a couple friends 10 or so years ago. I had never flown a plane period and took all my training in our plane straight through my IR. I used a Mooney pilot CFI for all my training and everything went well. I can tell you without pause a Mooney is a tough plane it is in no way a delicate flower. Another of the owners got his training along with me so we were able to benefit from each other's stick time from the back seat. Make sure you spend enough time learning to land the plane including how to recover from a botched landing. A good CFI will teach you to fly by the numbers and land by the numbers. A mediocre CFI will have you try and land the plane too fast and here's where the problems start. Don't be too influenced by what you read about a Mooney being hard to land they actually are very easy to land as long as you are at the correct landing speed. As far as the other systems go its going to take you longer to learn than a traditional trainer but you'll know more in the end...simple thought. Flight training is fun enjoy it.

Ricky

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Ricky.

Best regards,

-a-

[MyNameIsNobody]

10 hours ago, plumberpilot said:

To your original question:

Yes a Mooney is an excellent first plane to fly especially if you think you're going to fly one after you get licensed. I'm a helicopter pilot who bought a M20J MSE with a couple friends 10 or so years ago. I had never flown a plane period and took all my training in our plane straight through my IR. I used a Mooney pilot CFI for all my training and everything went well. I can tell you without pause a Mooney is a tough plane it is in no way a delicate flower. Another of the owners got his training along with me so we were able to benefit from each other's stick time from the back seat. Make sure you spend enough time learning to land the plane including how to recover from a botched landing. A good CFI will teach you to fly by the numbers and land by the numbers. A mediocre CFI will have you try and land the plane too fast and here's where the problems start. Don't be too influenced by what you read about a Mooney being hard to land they actually are very easy to land as long as you are at the correct landing speed. As far as the other systems go its going to take you longer to learn than a traditional trainer but you'll know more in the end...simple thought. Flight training is fun enjoy it.

Ricky

"Is a Mooney suitable for learning how to fly"...THAT is the title of the thread.  There is a reason that there are trainers on the market.  A 150-152 or Cherokee are designed to be abused through the learning curve.  They are a more simple airplane.  They are more influenced by wind because of their weight.  They are designed to allow spin recovery.  They get "back to flying" with application of power more quickly and easily.  They have very effective flaps.

I am writing this for "me" 15 plus years ago to "be that guy" that keeps it in perspective instead of "this guy" that is likely a pretty gifted pilot if he is competent in rotary and fixed wing airplanes.  He did it right...if you are going to "do it" in a Mooney-Mooney pilot CFI for ALL training-                          BUT WHY?

Why learn in a complex airplane that is more unforgiving, difficult, with a steeper downside, stall spin/gear up when you can have fun learning the basics of flying in a simple rugged airframe that was designed for training (flying in the pattern and cruising at 100MPH)...vs. a plane designed for cross-country fast travel.

A Mooney...ANY Mooney is NOT an excellent first plane to fly.  Fly somebody else's plane.  Learn.  Master the basics of flight.  You will have a lot more chance of loving it if you are NOT behind the airplane and its systems ALL the time.  

THEN-buy yourself an awesome airplane like a MSE and enjoy the hell out of YOUR non-delicate BUT complex flower with a Mooney pilot CFI to educate you on the ins and outs of Mooney's.  Have fun.

[plumberpilot]

Where is it written that a student pilot must be rough on the airframe? A good CFI won't let you damage the airplane but he will let you expand your envelope through your mistakes. I wouldn't recommend a Mooney as a primary trainer for the general public but if you're going to own one then buy it and train in it and skip all the relearning and transition from another airplane. You don't want a gear up landing because you never had to mess with it in the 152 you learned in. Obviously this is my opinion but its based on my experiences.

[gsengle]

Every single student pilot is though. (Tough on airplane) An instructor having to jump in to protect the airplane too much isn't good for learning. And if the instructor doesn't own the plane, I'm not sure he would jump in adequately.

Also a mooney is let's face it unforgiving. I don't want to bounce my nose wheel. I don't want to get slow and slam to the runway on the mains.

Can it be done? Yes. Is it wise? Not imho.

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[MyNameIsNobody]

8 minutes ago, plumberpilot said:

Where is it written that a student pilot must be rough on the airframe? A good CFI won't let you damage the airplane but he will let you expand your envelope through your mistakes. I wouldn't recommend a Mooney as a primary trainer for the general public but if you're going to own one then buy it and train in it and skip all the relearning and transition from another airplane. You don't want a gear up landing because you never had to mess with it in the 152 you learned in. Obviously this is my opinion but its based on my experiences.

I like this.  It is taking me down memory lane.  I remember my intro flight.  I first tried to turn with the yoke...Then I did a fine job of pulling on rotation.  So fine I struck the tail on the runway on departure...Good times.  I AM trainable as I have not repeated either of those.  

Gear-UP while under instruction.  SHE, not he forgot it was complex...J-Bar thing?...She flies Jets professionally, but obviously she and I had a bad day.

I meant ZERO disrespect.  Yes, we are each just giving our opinions.  I agree that a good pilot with a GOOD Mooney savvy instructor can learn in a Mooney...especially one that already flies rotary.  

I would have been a LOST puppy....

Enjoy your MSE.  THAT would be my dream plane...especially if sharing with a bunch of good pilots.

[plumberpilot]

Planes and Helicopters are totally different beasts. I had basic experience with the airspace system and more experience with radio communications but my weather and flight planning capabilities were nowhere near good enough for airplane flight. I'm a much more complete pilot now since I started flying planes because I understand what's going on around me now. Flying the plane wasn't as easy as I thought it would be for sure. I remember the first time I sat in the left seat of the Mooney looking at all that stuff and thinking I'll never figure this out but with patience it all falls into place. We used to joke about the idiot switch...the master. You knew everything until you turned that switch on, then you remembered nothing. I remember being in a cold sweat waiting to key the mike to call clearance just knowing I wouldn't understand or remember anything they said. I'm sure that never happened to you guys it's funny thinking back on it. Non pilots read this stuff and think why would you put yourself through all this? I don't have a good answer for that one.

Ricky

[MyNameIsNobody]

What is "hard" is most rewarding when accomplished.  Love Kennedy's "Moon" speech...

Good stuff Ricky.

[donkaye]

If taught correctly, because airplanes can be slowed down and therefore can closely mimic a trainer airplane, it is possible that a new student pilot could learn to fly in a Mooney.  However, I don't think most instructors teach correctly, from my point of view.  Although I think learning in a trainer would be easier, I have transitioned newly minted private pilots to a Mooney fairly easily when they were all willing to take input from me.

My ire does go up if the first thing someone says to me when I begin instruction is, "Well my instructor said..."' Then depending on the situation I ask that they take me back to the field and I terminate their instruction with me--no charge for the session.  What I usually say in those situations (they are rare) is, "I see where you are. I see where you need to go, and I'm not the one who will be able to get you there."  Sorry, but I just don't have time in my life to retrain those personality types.

Last week I flew with the instructor of the person who bought the Ovation 3 without having his Private yet.  He was very nice, but I can see it will take me about 10 hours, or more, to get him checked out in the plane.  As a test, I asked him at the end of our 1½ instructional flight if he felt comfortable teaching in the plane, and thankfully he said no--which was my opinion also.

I try not to be complacent when flying any airplane, but after flying Mooneys and going back to give instruction in the Pipers and  Cessnas, I feel like I'm teaching in a little toy airplane.

So, while learning in your dream Mooney airplane is possible given an experienced Mooney instructor, for the most part it is probably better to get your Private in a trainer.

[chrisk]

1 hour ago, donkaye said:

I try not to be complacent when flying any airplane, but after flying Mooneys and going back to give instruction in the Pipers and  Cessnas, I feel like I'm teaching in a little toy airplane.
 

This reminds me of an experience flying an ELSA not long ago.  An instructor gave me a lecture for not using a before landing check list in the pattern.  Think about what a GUMPS check means when you have:  No fuel cut off or selector, fixed gear, no mixture, no prop control, and just a seat belt (which I never undo anyway).  Anyway the lecture went into "I should check the fuel gauge before landing".  To which I responded:  "Ok, besides landing, what am I supposed to do different if the fuel gauge is on E?" --I got no answer.  But of course the one should always know how much fuel they have left, and if I ever had a question, I'd be within gliding range anyway. 

Back on topic, the difference in complexity was huge.  There was only one thing to focus on:  flying the aircraft.  And for training, I can see a lot of benefit to the lack of complexity.

 

[plumberpilot]

I'm just curious, what can a student pilot be taught in a trainer aircraft that he can't be taught in a Mooney? (I think only the opposite is true) Like I said I've never flown a trainer but I don't think I missed anything or did I?

[ArtVandelay]

Spins, including incipient spins. Given every time you do a maneuver SOP was go full rich, I wouldn't want to do that with my engine, or the abuse of all the takeoffs, landings.

[chrisk]

20 minutes ago, plumberpilot said:

I'm just curious, what can a student pilot be taught in a trainer aircraft that he can't be taught in a Mooney? (I think only the opposite is true) Like I said I've never flown a trainer but I don't think I missed anything or did I?

Have you ever done a spin?  Granted it doesn't have to be a trainer, but it should not be in a Mooney (unless maybe you are a factory test pilot). 

Which brings a bigger point on what you may have missed by not flying a trainer.  Did your instructor let you get sloppy and enter a stall uncoordinated?  Some treat this as a learning experience.  Letting you exclaim your surprise, then pointing out after the fact that you were not coordinated.  --Of course, this may just have been my instructor when I learned years ago.  But it did work.  I keep that ball centered when I am anywhere near a potential stall.

 

 

[plumberpilot]

No I haven't done a spin, do you think I should find an instructor and a plane and do a few?

[gsengle]

Too much extraneous complexity doesn't help primary training. Also the mooney laminar flow wing is less forgiving...

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