Shameless opinion seeking part 2

[cowboy85]

Morning all,

I am considering a Mooney C as my first airplane, while doing some investigating on a potential candidate I came across this old thread http://mooneyspace.com/topic/11148-shameless-opinion-seeking/#comment-134670 . The trade a plane ad is here http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/1977/Mooney/M20C+Ranger/1732963.html

  I would also like to ask for the opinion of the Mooneyspace community. A few of my concerns are the lack of use (~40 hrs/year), being for sale for 2 years, and avionics being installed by the owner. I've talked to the seller some, the date of the engine overhaul was 2008 and the hours in the ad have not changed since its been for sale as far as I can tell. Should I be concerned with self-installed avionics?  

What do yall think?

 

Thanks

Matt

 

[M20F]

47 minutes ago, cowboy85 said:

A few of my concerns are the lack of use (~40 hrs/year), 

Most people fly between 50-100'ish hours a year at best, I wouldn't 40hrs per year (and you can determine the actual yearly use) to be all that bad.  Personally I think it is about $10K over priced.  These things come down to only two things a good pre-buy and what the actual purchase price is.  For the right price I would buy a Mooney with 4000hrs on the engine that hadn't flown in 10yrs.  Patience and resisting irrational exuberance are musts in the quest to buy any plane. 

[carusoam]

Matt,

you should be concerned with self installed avionics if that is the case.  Often an owner with experience can install things with the final signature in the logs being the one that indicates it was installed properly.  The proper credentials like A&P and IA are important.  Some owners have these credentials as well.

I briefly read the ad.  He mentions working with an IA.  I didn't get the feeling he was installing things himself without guidance then publicly saying so...  That would be incorrect.

His writing style says he did things that could be him or he paid to have it done...

Any questions, contact the seller and ask.

40 well distributed hours is better than 40 hours in one week and 51 weeks of sitting outside.

It is a Nice looking powerfully equipped plane.  Back in the day people would question the idea of spending so much on the panel of a C.  One of my favorite C panels has an Aspen mounted in it to help him navigate around Europe.

It could be a great plane. Start the conversation going. I would bet the owner would like to talk about what he has put into it.  A PPI will verify what the owner says.

Best regards,

-a-

[ArtVandelay]

I would go thru the logbooks carefully to insure all the owner work has proper sign offs.

I would (on any plane) have the owner,broker take you up for a test flight and use that opportunity to check all avionics equipment: do a VOR check, test the radios, etc.

Being for sale for 2 years means the plane is overpriced, all sellers think their plane is worth more, too bad it's the buyers who decide how much a plane is worth.

[KSMooniac]

Looks like a nice C to me.  High TT is not a big deal at all... there are some J's on here with >10,000 hours.  It is all about condition and maintenance history.

[bonal]

I think the price a bit high but if you open it up and all checks out OK on a PPI and get an acceptable price (to you) I say go for it. In the pics it looks like a nice C have you seen it in person?

[RangerJim]

Matt,

Perhaps I am missing something here.  I don't understand where your area of concern about self installed avionics originated.  As I read the TAP ad you provided I can only deduce that the last line in the avionics section was misconstrued.  I'm interpreting it to read that there is a Century ONE autopilot installed - not that  I installed a Century autopilot.  This is perfectly understandable in one looking at their first plane purchase and who wasn't in the game back in the 70's when Century was a bigger player.  As others have suggested a simple phone call to the owner will set us straight on that issue.

The high AFTT is a marketability factor but not a safety of flight issue if the plane checks out otherwise.  I'd side with those who recommend taking it to Don Maxwell for a PPI with the option of converting it to an annual if you decide to pull the trigger.  This is a negotiating item that is in your favor buying in and against you when it comes time to sell.  Ultimately your offering price is your decision.

I think that C's are a lot of bang for the buck and the late serial numbers are the nicest - lots of parts for the early J's made it into the last of the C's such as the six pack panel, modern circuit breakers, strip gauges, etc...Admittedly I am a C owner myself and biased in my opinions.

If a C meets your mission requirements then this one is a possibility.

Welcome in any case and happy hunting.

 

[cowboy85]

Thanks for the replies guys,

 I may have left out some info on my concern about the avionics install thinking the details were in the thread from a few years ago, looking back it was in a separate conversation. The owner did the radio upgrades himself is what I was referring to, I haven't seen many owners take on something like that and didn't know if I was making more out of it than I should.

Total time doesn't concern me much, I'd rather have one that has been used and taken care of.

Bonal, I have not seen it in person yet, trying to find the best way to get from central Texas to Northeast Arkansas

 

Matt

[rbridges]

7 hours ago, M20F said:

Most people fly between 50-100'ish hours a year at best, I wouldn't 40hrs per year (and you can determine the actual yearly use) to be all that bad.  Personally I think it is about $10K over priced.  These things come down to only two things a good pre-buy and what the actual purchase price is.  For the right price I would buy a Mooney with 4000hrs on the engine that hadn't flown in 10yrs.  Patience and resisting irrational exuberance are musts in the quest to buy any plane. 

I agree about the hours.  If the 40 hours were spaced out evenly, that's roughly a 1.5 hr flight every 2 weeks.  I would be more worried about the hours coming in clumps and the plane sitting for months at a time.  

I'd look at it closely.  If the plane has been sitting for sale for 2 years, something is wrong or overpriced.  I've seen planes on this site get sold in just a few weeks.  Good planes at fair prices don't sit on the market long.

[gsxrpilot]

As someone who flies an over upgraded C myself, it seems that this owner just had some misplaced priorities. For my money I'd like a better balance between avionics and speed mods. This one is all radios and no mods. But if Don Maxwell gave it a clean bill of health and you could get into it for $40K, I'd probably do it.

[glafaille]

I am in the market for a C model myself and seriously considered this plane but disregarded it for it's price, remote location and after talking to rhe seller, extensive owner performed maintenance.   I got the distinct impression that ALL maintenance on this aircraft is done by the owner because he didn't want to pay others to do it.  The owner did say that he knew a mechanic nearby who would sign off the work, but as the plane is based on his own private field (grass strip), I wonder just how frequently he was actually "supervised" per the FARs. Furthermore, I wonder if all 337s & STCs are in order anf filed with the FAA, maybe so, maybe not.

I have heard too many stories from mechanics of finding Home Depot hardware and Auto Zone parts on owner maintained GA airplanes.  Personally I am uncomfortable with EXTENSIVE owner performed maintenance unless the A&P/IA is present in the same shop.  I have no problem with owner performed maintenance in their own hangars as specefied in the FARs.

Having said all of this, I think if the owner would agree to an ANNUAL inspection performed at a MSC (Maxwell), then I would feel OK.  A PPI would not be enough for me to insure everything is "up to code".  An annual inspection is, among other things, a conformity inspection.  In otherwords the IA is certifying that the aircraft meets the manufacturer's Type Certificate and is AIRWORTHY.  

Remember that it's the BUYER who usually pays for the PPI/annual, figure $2000.

The bottom line is this:  The airplane may be a wonderful buy.  The seller might come down a bit, he may have done all of the work properly and it may be signed off properly, the plane might be in pristine condition all around.  But you will have to travel there, talk to the guy, and get him to agree to an extensive inspection, at your expense, at the very type of place he has been avoiding for a long time.

This could indeed be the "Barn  Find" we all hear about but you will have to go there to find out.  If he was local to me I would have been there months ago.

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by glafaille

[TWinter]

The shop that did the OH is a good shop. The panel looks well done. This plane is about 30 minutes from me. There are no MSCs in our area. There are shops that are near by.(Caruthersville Avionics-talk to Chris or call Jewell Aviation in Kennett, MO-talk to Sam) and ask them about it. They are fairly close to where the plane is based. I'm sure they will remember working on it and can give their opinion of its condition.

 

-Tom

[Bob_Belville]

My $0.02 on the relative value of past elective surgery. 

I have an vintage short body Mooney with a lot (all?) possibly speed mods. These are nice and now are expensive, in some cases impossible, to do. But imnsho the panel and the engine are much more important considerations, particularly in a C model. Even an all-original, as to mods, C is fast and efficient compared to anything else in this price range except for a 200 HP Mooney and even then the difference is not very important for most trips (maybe 10-15% slower than a C or J at cruise if one can believe the proud C owners here) and is not important at all for local flying and $100 burger runs.

[glafaille]

Cowboy-

If you don't live close to the plane maybe you can ask/beg/pay one of our mooneyspace guys that are close, to look at it for you to get a feel for it.  (Twinter?)

[cowboy85]

   I have gotten a name and number via PM of a mechanic that is reasonably close. I think I will see if he would be interested in roadtripping to give it an educated once over, or knows someone that might.

I like everything about the plane, I think I have some first time buyer jitters... combined with previous ill researched impulse buys that didn't work out so well I am trying to be cautious with this one.

 

Matt

[DXB]

Doesn't look so bad to me, price is not totally nuts if as advertised and has been used frequently despite the low-ish hours.  Surprised it has been on the market so long - it could reflect a stubborn owner, undisclosed issues with the plane, or both.  I'll leave the avionics install concerns to the experts to sort out.  Good luck- hope it works out for you with this or another C model.  Really great planes.

[mike28w]

Jeez....If this passes a thorough  pre-purchase inspection, I don't know how you could expect any more plane for $48 K.   No , I don't know the plane or the seller ( never been to Arkansas, either ! )    ;- )   mike 

 

PS: Consider how much time and money can be spent ( wasted) shopping , just to save a couple of thousand bucks.  If it's a good plane and it's priced close to market.....I wouldn't make a game out of it.  When you find a good one, buy it.

Edited January 25, 2016 by mike28w

[Hank]

39 minutes ago, mike28w said:

If this passes a thorough  pre-purchase inspection . . . If it's a good plane, buy it.

Here, I condensed Mike's answer to make it easy.

 

[cowboy85]

Weekend looks good, thinking a road trip is in order.

 

Matt

[steingar]

The price looks high unless the tanks were sealed by one of the more reputable shops.  Those seals cost an arm and a leg but they're good for years and years.  If that's the case the price isn't really all that bad.  If the tanks were sealed as part of an owner's conducted maintenance plan, or were done by Clem down at the shop, I'd say this is priced about 10AMU too high.

[MitchS]

I fly a M20C as well, and when I was looking for mine encounted one of those "owner special" modified aircraft.  As others have said, the key here is if the logbooks & a detailed pre-buy come up clean.  If they do its a decent deal.

Avionics are expensive, I just got done with a $50+K upgrade to my panel...so having some nicer avionics is a good leg up.  And remember asking price is just that, a starting point.

[22 others]

I never did meet up with the seller when I was looking.  I got the idea he wasn't yet ready to part with it due to some scheduling.... problems.  I bet you'll like everything but the paint.

Whoever said this plane is 10k overpriced is a nut. I'd bet you could part it out for at least that much. According to my spreadsheet, it was priced at $55,000 a few years ago. Looks like he's ready to sell, and I bet it will sell soon for close to asking price.

[rbridges]

28 minutes ago, 22 others said:

I never did meet up with the seller when I was looking.  I got the idea he wasn't yet ready to part with it due to some scheduling.... problems.  I bet you'll like everything but the paint.

Whoever said this plane is 10k overpriced is a nut. I'd bet you could part it out for at least that much. According to my spreadsheet, it was priced at $55,000 a few years ago. Looks like he's ready to sell, and I bet it will sell soon for close to asking price.

If he weren't willing to budge on $55k over the last few years, I could see why the plane didn't sell.  $47.5 seems more realistic in today's market.

[steingar]

21 hours ago, 22 others said:

Whoever said this plane is 10k overpriced is a nut. I'd bet you could part it out for at least that much. According to my spreadsheet, it was priced at $55,000 a few years ago. Looks like he's ready to sell, and I bet it will sell soon for close to asking price.

That would be me, and I stand by what I said.  Wasn't that long ago that I was seeing exactly what was selling and what wasn't.  Heck, if it was priced right it'd have sold by now.

I probably paid a bit much for mine, but I had the extra advantage of unloading my airplane in the deal, which made it irresistible.  

[22 others]

While I think the idea was correct, I could have said it without name-calling.  Mea culpa.