Do i need a pre buy ????

[ryoder]

8 hours ago, ryoder said: I bought my C without a prebuy but I picked it up at the independent local shop where it was just annualled.  So far so good.

OTOH, I know someone who relied on an annual by the seller's mechanic (who had performed the annuals for a few years) and later had to pay for a lot of repair work, including the teardown once the FAA was informed of all the unauthorized and improper repairs that had been either done or missed through the years.

its not even a question of dishonesty. Just of that second set of eyes hired by you, rather than by them.

There are no guarantees either way. It's a matter of risk tolerance and mitigation.

 

This shop has never seen the airplane and had to get a ferry permit so they didn't trust anything on it. It was maintained by a MSC and had all original hoses on it from 50 years ago.

[Yetti]

I think that is the interesting thing about annuals/pre buy.   40 year old hoses can pass an annual and pre buy, but I would not consider them airworthy.   There is only one old hose left on my plane the right brake line and I have the hose material to replace it.  Just need to find the time.

Edited January 14, 2016 by Yetti

[ArtVandelay]

This shop has never seen the airplane and had to get a ferry permit so they didn't trust anything on it. It was maintained by a MSC and had all original hoses on it from 50 years ago.

The first thing my MSC did was replace all the hoses, they were "only" 20 years old. I don't think there is a definitive standard.

[midlifeflyer]

1 hour ago, ryoder said:

This shop has never seen the airplane and had to get a ferry permit so they didn't trust anything on it. It was maintained by a MSC and had all original hoses on it from 50 years ago.

Excellent. That's the real point. Not whether you do a "pre-buy" or not, but whether you have someone independent of the seller and his mechanics thoroughly examine the airplane for you. 

[Yetti]

I believe the test for hoses is their flexibility or lack there of.   Rebuilding the brake line took longer because the old hose was falling apart while removing the reusable connectors.

[michæl]

On January 10, 2016 at 9:59 AM, DAVIDWH said:

Why would anyone want to pay $$ for a pre-buy when you can find out about the planes issues and problems,

cost free,  a few hours flying time after purchase.

That's just foolish.  Always get a pre-buy.  Even if you are buying a supposed "Certified Pre-Owned" airplane.  Even those airplanes have specific items that are not necessarily disclosed that will affect the value.

[Mcoyne34]

Just now, michæl said:

That's just foolish.  Always get a pre-buy.  Even if you are buying a supposed "Certified Pre-Owned" airplane.  Even those airplanes have specific items that are not necessarily disclosed that will affect the value.

I believe that was sarcasm.....

[michæl]

On January 14, 2016 at 8:27 AM, midlifeflyer said:

Excellent. That's the real point. Not whether you do a "pre-buy" or not, but whether you have someone independent of the seller and his mechanics thoroughly examine the airplane for you. 

The pre-buy should always be independent.  One tactic that brokers will use is the "we'll throw this in (stc, options, etc.,) and while the plane is there we'll do the pre-buy".  That's a tactic to keep you in the dark as to what you're buying.  There's no good reason to not get a pre-buy unless you just like to gamble or really don't care what you're getting.

[michæl]

Just now, Mcoyne34 said:

I believe that was sarcasm.....

Wow, thank God.  I just read that and it raised my blood pressure..  Holy cow I'm off this morning.  Read as sarcasm it's hilarious.  Geez.. Thanks for that...

 

[michæl]

I hired Brian Kendrick for a pre-buy on an airplane.  One of the best people I've ever met.  Check him out:

http://mooneysupport.net/2.html

[Cayman44]

You guys are terrific and I look forward to joining this illustrious group.  Received a 2-page purchase contract  today that pretty much leaves the only way out as the acceptability of the results of the PPI.  Everything else is "as is"....kinda like buying a used car.  Anyone have examples of purchase contracts that might give me more "happiness" with this one or potentially useful verbiage to add.   Since the "recommended" PPI provider is the provider of the last three annuals, and I control the actual PPI provider at my cost, it seems like I should have the AC flown to Denver to the closest MSC - Arapahoe Air at Centennial AP, in Denver.  Anyone have experience with Arapahoe Air?  Thanks. BTW - I'm a systems engineer, been GA flying for 45 years, and have good insight into how things work and how things are bought in the hundred page contracts.  This is my first for an aircraft. Thanks

denver44ck@earthlink.net

[michæl]

Just be sure the contract doesn't only stipulate specifically "discovery of damage" or similar verbiage for your "out".  As referenced in another thread, "damage" is subjective.  Also, use an escrow service for the deposit.  You'll hear many stories of people who had entirely legitimate grounds for a return of their deposit only to have to resort to litigation.  There may be some things discovered that aren't necessarily "damage" but for you, they aren't acceptable.

[Cayman44]

Yes - purchase is through a broker and escrow will be in place.  Here's the operative paragraph - which I like.  but nothing about my personal inspection or test flight.

"Pre-purchase Inspection.  Buyer, at It's option, may elect to have the airplane inspected before delivery. Buyer has the option of specifying the entity or person performing the inspection and the inspection shall be at Buyer's expense.  Buyer has the option of accepting or declining acceptance of the aircraft based on the results of the inspection."

[michæl]

Prior to a pre-buy, consider getting a title report for $95. that shows all the history of the plane, including previous n-numbers.  From there, even google can reveal quite a bit.  You may find things out about the plane that would cause you concern.  Of course, getting a copy of the logs prior to any of this goes without saying.  Placing a call to the people who did the work in the logs is a good way to get a better background on the plane, and if you're inclined, a call to Brian Kendrick could be a great first step.

Edited January 15, 2016 by michæl

[Cayman44]

I have the CD from the FAA registry with the ownership history and IA provided Airworthiness history.  Many LLC owners (6)  for an '89 M20M.  I plan on keeping this until they take away my medical in 15+ years.

[Yetti]

The All American contract was pretty owner sided.  The AOPA contract seemed better.    I would probably work Airworthyness into a deal since that can be pretty subjective and gives you some wiggle room

Not a lawyer just read and written bunch of software contracts

Best attorney advice I got was "if you are willing to ask for performance, you should be willing to accept performance for the same terms.

 

You can ask the FAA to create a CD on the records of the plane for $15.00

Edited January 15, 2016 by Yetti

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, Cayman44 said:

Yes - purchase is through a broker and escrow will be in place.  Here's the operative paragraph - which I like.  but nothing about my personal inspection or test flight.

"Pre-purchase Inspection.  Buyer, at It's option, may elect to have the airplane inspected before delivery. Buyer has the option of specifying the entity or person performing the inspection and the inspection shall be at Buyer's expense.  Buyer has the option of accepting or declining acceptance of the aircraft based on the results of the inspection."

I can't give legal advice (I haven't seen the whole contract, my malpractice insurer would have a fit and, if you want legal advice for the sale, go hire a lawyer licensed in your state) but notice that "Buyer has the option of accepting or declining acceptance of the aircraft based on the results of the inspection." I'm guessing there isn't a list of discrepancies that qualify for declining or a statement that it has to be something airworthy. It's the same as a home purchase with an inspection clause. It's all subjective - as in you.  There is almost always something which you can say "no, I don't like that so I'm not buying it." 

Of course you can personally inspect. At least I hope you are an "entity or person."

Test flights are a separate issue. Some purchase contracts mention them; others don't. They are usually available. Ask the seller or broker about it before you sign and have it written in if they agree. And expect that any test flight you do will include either the seller or someone designated by the seller as PIC.

[DAVIDWH]

That's just foolish.  Always get a pre-buy.  Even if you are buying a supposed "Certified Pre-Owned" airplane.  Even those airplanes have specific items that are not necessarily disclosed that will affect the value.

You have a problem recognizing humor and sarcasm?

[HC]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:45 PM, Danb said:

Couldn't agree more, when I bought my new Bravo, they did a PPI on my 1988 J. It was purchased new by me and I had most of the work done by MSC's or after the warranty period reputable shops. The J was 16 years old with about 900 hours of pampered care. I agreed to pay for the inspection and repair the findings. The cost to me was around $12,000 the plane just came out of annual. I've always wondered if I was hosed, poor work done for its 16 yrs.? One of the items was airworthy or lack of I had just flown from De To Fla. to get my Bravo at the dealer at FXE the mags fell apart in the mechanics hand.  True or false?  I did rest easier knowing I sold a plane in the best condition I could put it in. The owner now a MAPA instructor told me last yr. he never had a problem in his 9 yrs. therefore the ppi is good for both parties. Apparently both parties slept better 

I am a newbie, too, not just to Mooney but to aviation in general.

Actually, I started taking flight lessons last December and planning to purchase a price-worthy old Mooney.

Living in DC Metro area, I would really appreciate if you could recommend a good, trustworthy and experienced mechanic nearby, hopefully in VA and MD.

Thank you so much for your help in advance.

[Marauder]

On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 5:45 PM, Danb said: Couldn't agree more, when I bought my new Bravo, they did a PPI on my 1988 J. It was purchased new by me and I had most of the work done by MSC's or after the warranty period reputable shops. The J was 16 years old with about 900 hours of pampered care. I agreed to pay for the inspection and repair the findings. The cost to me was around $12,000 the plane just came out of annual. I've always wondered if I was hosed, poor work done for its 16 yrs.? One of the items was airworthy or lack of I had just flown from De To Fla. to get my Bravo at the dealer at FXE the mags fell apart in the mechanics hand.  True or false?  I did rest easier knowing I sold a plane in the best condition I could put it in. The owner now a MAPA instructor told me last yr. he never had a problem in his 9 yrs. therefore the ppi is good for both parties. Apparently both parties slept better 

I am a newbie, too, not just to Mooney but to aviation in general.

Actually, I started taking flight lessons last December and planning to purchase a price-worthy old Mooney.

Living in DC Metro area, I would really appreciate if you could recommend a good, trustworthy and experienced mechanic nearby, hopefully in VA and MD.

Thank you so much for your help in advance.

There are a few owners in those areas. I'm sure they will be along shortly. As will the snow...

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HC]

Thank you so much for quick response.  Yes, snow over here is not a kidding. DE might be affected as well.  Please stay warm and safe^^