Mooney Aerobatics

[M20F]

10 minutes ago, hoot777 said:

The 707 did a barrel roll over Seattle --if done correctly a one g maneuver-also the head Boeing Test pilot did it--he was sharp !!! Its all about safety factors and design.

Tex Johnson and he did it twice.  When asked why he said he wasn't sure if everyone was watching the first one. 

[bonal]

6 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

I am still waiting to hear more about these 1g loops?

Me too, got to go for a full aerobatic ride in a Chisten Eagle and we went 6plus G on the bottom of the loop.

[carusoam]

Got to know where the 1g was measured, at the top?

Best regards,

-a-

[Mooneymite]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaA7kPfC5Hk

[Shadrach]

6 hours ago, Raptor05121 said:

I'm sure many of you have seen the bone-stock A36 at SnF who does 1G loops and such. I'm sure its easy to do on paper. But then again, I think the all-moving tail is the weakest link in a Mooney should you decide to stress the airframe.

Raptor, 1G is straight and level flight or sitting in my kitchen typing this. A proper loop entry generates about 3.5Gs. 

[Mooneymite]

8 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

A proper loop entry generates about 3.5Gs. 

3.5 G's if done properly.  Done improperly, a loop can generate a lot more G's and excitement.    

Ask me how I know.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, bonal said:

Me too, got to go for a full aerobatic ride in a Chisten Eagle and we went 6plus G on the bottom of the loop.

Dear god why? Was he trying to impress you? Not necessary to pull that many Gs on exit. Reads like he maybe flubbed the maneuver.

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, hoot777 said:

The 707 did a barrel roll over Seattle --if done correctly a one g maneuver-also the head Boeing Test pilot did it--he was sharp !!! Its all about safety factors and design.

A barrel roll and a slow roll are both positive G maneuvers, not necessarily a 1G maneuvers. G loads are typically not constant in a roll.

[Mooneymite]

21 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

A barrel roll and a slow roll are both positive G maneuvers, ......

The slow roll produces a constantly shifting load of one g-force on both the pilot and the aircraft, from one g positive in the upright position to one g negative in the inverted, caused by gravity.

(At least according to Wikipedia.)

[M20F]

24 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

A barrel roll and a slow roll are both positive G maneuvers, not necessarily a 1G maneuvers. G loads are typically not constant in a roll.

When done properly a roll is 1G, observe the greatest stick and rudder pilot ever (according to Jimmy Dolittle)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWxuKcD6vE

Edited December 16, 2015 by M20F

[Shadrach]

21 minutes ago, M20F said:

When done properly a roll is 1G, observe the greatest stick and rudder pilot ever (according to Jimmy Dolittle)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMWxuKcD6vE

Iced tea pours just fine at at .8gs and 1.2Gs. If anyone could hold a perfect 1G roll it would be BH, but I do not believe the objective is to hold a constant 1G through the whole roll.

[Shadrach]

3 minutes ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Correct.  I am a rank aerobatics amateur, but I have done slow rolls in a Great Lakes.  Very challenging, and rewarding to do "well", as they require a reversal of rudder input as the g's go from positive to negative and then back to positive again. 

I too am an amature and must be mischaracterizing the slow roll, for instance in 20Fs video,that is not a true barrel roll (90 degrees off start heading through the top) but it is certainly positive all the way through. So what would you call it? I always thought it was a slow roll.

[M20F]

Just now, Shadrach said:

Ice-T pours just fine at at .8gs and 1.2Gs. If anyone could hold a perfect 1G roll it would be BH, but I do not believe the objective is to hold a constant 1G through the whole roll.

A little too much negative and the tea is going to pour fine all over the floor.  I agree nobody is going to do exactly 1G especially given the earth itself has variable gravity, point is an aileron roll is pretty benign (barrel, snap, etc, less so). 

[Mooneymite]

A so-called aileron roll is different from a slow roll.  With an aileron roll, the nose initially rises above the horizon, but the nose can drop through the horizon while inverted, so positive G can be maintained.  The slow roll is a constant altitude maneuver (....at least in theory).  A barrel roll is different from either.

[DAVIDWH]

Some years ago a female aerobatic pilot flew Mooney aerobatics at several air shows. (Her name escapes me)

However, I do remember either a fuel pump mod or an oil pump mod (Or both),  necessary for inverted flight.

She eventually stopped flying the Mooney and moved on to a Siai Marchetti.

Not sure if she is still flying or not.

Where are those History buffs when you need them?

[steingar]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

I think the hinged canopy on the 14 has a pin release as do the side opening canopies on the tandom models. I think they're likely a hell of a lot easier to get out of than the back seat of a Decathlon.  

I'd bet that a fair amount of the Mooney fleet has been on it's back a time or two, but then you could say that many business Jets as well.

The RV7 within with I did aerobatics (or more accurately was a passenger having a hoot of a time while the pilot did aerobatics) didn't have hinged anything, nor were either of us wearing any sort of parachute.  Dangerous to be certain, though I suspect I may be a bit guilty of such had I one.  Thank goodness for Mrs. Steingar's kit.

[KSMooniac]

As a kid I got to see Gene and Charlie practicing their routines at my home airport.  I saw them in Eagles and at least once in Mooneys!  It was pretty cool to see, especially when I was used to riding in the back of an M20C with my parents.

[Shadrach]

28 minutes ago, steingar said:

The RV7 within with I did aerobatics (or more accurately was a passenger having a hoot of a time while the pilot did aerobatics) didn't have hinged anything, nor were either of us wearing any sort of parachute.  Dangerous to be certain, though I suspect I may be a bit guilty of such had I one.  Thank goodness for Mrs. Steingar's kit.

Interesting, You're sure there was not some means of releasing the canopy at the front hinge? I can't imagine how Vans could call it aerobatic without providing some method of departing the aircraft in the event of structural failure or unrecoverable departure from controlled flight.

[Mooneymite]

Gee!  This thread is interesting since all these years, I thought "Mooney Aerobatics" was all about what one has to do getting in and out of a Mooney.  

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

A so-called aileron roll is different from a slow roll.  With an aileron roll, the nose initially rises above the horizon, but the nose can drop through the horizon while inverted, so positive G can be maintained.  The slow roll is a constant altitude maneuver (....at least in theory).  A barrel roll is different from either.

The names of rolls has always confused me. I think there is a lot of misunderstanding of the different types. Wiki claims an aileron roll is "uncontrolled in pitch" which is to say after the initial pull up, the elevator is neutralized before full aileron deflection begins and is not applied again until roll out. That does not seem like a constant positive G maneuver to me.

Wiki:

 "An aileron roll is similar to the slow roll, and the two maneuvers are often confused with each other. However, unlike a slow roll, an aileron roll is performed at the maximum roll rate, and is uncontrolled in the pitch axis. It consists of a constant attitude change during the maneuver; from the initial pitch-up to the plane following a slight corkscrew path as the nose drops, followed by the final pitch-up. If the pilot picks a reference point on the horizon, directly ahead of the plane, the nose will actually appear to trace a shape similar to the letter "D" above this reference point.^[4]"

[Shadrach]

1 hour ago, M20F said:

A little too much negative and the tea is going to pour fine all over the floor.  I agree nobody is going to do exactly 1G especially given the earth itself has variable gravity, point is an aileron roll is pretty benign (barrel, snap, etc, less so). 

Any negative and the tea will end up on the floor.  I think people people often conceptualize anything less than 1G as negative because of the way it feels to the body. 

[N601RX]

My brothers RV was built as a slider in that the canopy just slides straight back once it is unlatched.  They can be built as either a tip up or slider,  but the slider seems to be the preferred way.

[bonal]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Dear god why? Was he trying to impress you? Not necessary to pull that many Gs on exit. Reads like he maybe flubbed the maneuver.

The flight we took was fantastic he was an active aerobatic competitor and based on the (his) entire routine I don't think he flubbed the manuver as we transitioned from one stunt to the next he advised me where and when to look through each phase of the manuver including the 6 g pull out which he nailed on the G meter as we pulled out. We did this with smoke on my favorite manuver was a vertical spiral climbing to a tail slide and when the Eagle swapped ends we were looking straight through the cork screw of the smoke. Since he advised me on visual cues for each move I never got the least bit air sick. This flight was over 25 years ago an I remember like it was yesterday and for the rest of my life.

[pirate]

I'm currently building a slider tail wheel 7. I have modified the canopy with two pins replacing the bolts at the front slides if I would decide to let the canopy go inflight and also for    easier removal for maint. The only problem as mentioned on VAF is that if released its highly likely to strike the tail.

The RV 9 does have a quick disconnect for the canopy, generally at the top of the panel.

 

[steingar]

5 hours ago, Shadrach said:

Interesting, You're sure there was not some means of releasing the canopy at the front hinge? I can't imagine how Vans could call it aerobatic without providing some method of departing the aircraft in the event of structural failure or unrecoverable departure from controlled flight.

Asked about and was told their was none.  Not a terribly logical thing, not only is it likely to strike the empennage but I think the front edge could have easily hit our heads on the way back.  Aerobatics were illegal anyway, no chutes.  Not that I was going to say anything.