What would you do with $5k?

[donkaye]

Very late to this party, but the difference in speed in becoming a very good instrument pilot is the difference between night and day when comparing learning with old legacy instruments versus those of the new technology.  In my opinion you want the best situational awareness your money can buy, and old technology is a hindrance to that.  Laptop iPads are a distraction and obviously have no autopilot interface, but in the worst case helps.

$5,000 gets you practically nothing of value, so if it were me, I would get the rating with the old technology, fly simple IFR like climbing and descend through a cloud deck, absolutely no hard IFR, and save up the money to get the avionics that will bring you into the present and provide much less risk and a greater margin of safety.

Even if you don't use the rating that much, the precision in flying gained through its achievement makes it a worthwhile goal in and of itself.

[Danb]

Agreed that in the world of flight $5000 is minimal for hardware, and much better spent utilized on becoming a precise aviator obtaining your instrument rating. I would like Mr Kaye to expand on the worthlessness of the iPad. I may be reading the statement incorrectly? Does Don have an IPad?

[ArtVandelay]

37 minutes ago, Danb said:

Agreed that in the world of flight $5000 is minimal for hardware, and much better spent utilized on becoming a precise aviator obtaining your instrument rating. I would like Mr Kaye to expand on the worthlessness of the iPad. I may be reading the statement incorrectly? Does Don have an IPad?

It's hard to tell but I think he is saying, learn old school methods first, before you get an iPad which can be a great help for situation awareness, but has its limitations 

 

[donkaye]

22 minutes ago, Danb said:

Agreed that in the world of flight $5000 is minimal for hardware, and much better spent utilized on becoming a precise aviator obtaining your instrument rating. I would like Mr Kaye to expand on the worthlessness of the iPad. I may be reading the statement incorrectly? Does Don have an IPad?

A full size iPad not yoke mounted is bulky and distracting to the extent that a pilot who is trying to fly a 6 pack is constantly looking up and down, focusing and refocusing--not good when training for the rating.  A mini is useful mounted on the yoke for approach plates and I've had students use it for the rating. I will modify what I said in the previous posting and recommend purchasing a Garmin 796 mounted on the yoke with part of the $5,000.  It gives Approach Plates and important weather information and situational awareness when only legacy instruments are available on the panel.  

I do have an iPad that I use as a backup for the following: Approach Charts, all traffic (active and passive ADS-B), both XM and FIS-B weather, and XM Radio control of the GMA 35.  My iPad situation is unique, though,  because I have spent in excess of $5,000 for those iPad situational awareness functions.  They required a GDL 69A, GDL 88, GTS 800, GTN 750, GMA 35, and a Flight Stream 210.  My primary for Approach Charts is the 796.

[Danb]

Don, agreed, that is the way I also utilize mine. Only difference is I use the larger for my charts and my mini as a backup, just a personal preference, think about the fact that we have so many options for the tablets not long ago we spent Friday evenings filing our Jepps. I wasn't trying to bust your balls and expected the clarification as stated. Spending $5000 on precision flying is wisely spent dollars, an easy answer to the question as started in this thread.

[jlunseth]

I agree with Don.  There is not much you can afford for $5,000 that would be very helpful.  The one thing I saw posted that might be of value would be an HSI if you can get one installed for your price.  The HSI lets you set the inbound course on a VOR or ILS, and then fly the entire approach "own nav" without reverse sensing.  So when you fly the course outbound from the ILS you can just follow the needle the way you normally would, and same on the inbound course.

Aviation navigation is going completely GPS.  Really the only thing of much value outside of GPS are ILS approaches.  I have never been assigned or asked for a VOR approach, an arc, and certainly not an NDB, which I am equipped for.  I occasionally fly these just for practice, but the vast majority if not all fields now have GPS approaches.

If I were you I would save up for a different plane.  If you intend to fly hard IFR very much, you are not just going to want a different panel with GPS nav and weather display capability, you are going to want something with redundancies built into the airframe that you don't currently have, like dual alternators, dual batteries, dual vacuums (or none at all, but all electronic).  Much better to prevent the type of failures that would lead to a partial panel approach, so you never need to do one, than to be the most skilled partial panel pilot in aviation history. 

[carusoam]

Some things have changed in recent history...

1) Pilots would fly in different planes.

2) Their portable equipment was a box of charts.

3) They were stuck with whatever was going to be in the plane. Mandated by economics of a profitable business.

4) The FAA mandated what had to be in the plane, and what could not be kept in the plane.

 

Today we are talking about....

1) One personal plane that can be updated economically.

2) since 5 AMU doesn't install a single used WAAS device.

3) spread the AMUs on engine monitors, FF, portable devices, chart updates, weather in the cockpit, electronic back-up instruments and....

4) Training

thinking out loud,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

Thank you all for the very wise advice.  

I do have an iPad mini on the yoke and a stratux.    I also have a garmin aera510, so xm is also possible.   Someone mentioned an engine monitor.. Actually, that was the first equipment I added to this plane when I bought it.  Jpi830 with all the extras.   I have the accuflite and alt hold ready to install. (The switches will go at the top of the panel under the tape in the photo)

As I mentioned earlier, I got a ki-208 to replace my old #2 cdi.  It is in now.  I've attached a photo of the panel as it is now.  

I have no intention of EVER flying hard ifr.  I simply just want to get in and out when there are vfr ceilings of about 3000' min.  I was thinking about getting an Apollo gx60, or gnc300xl if I can find a super deal on either one.  I know someone that got a gx60 for $900 with annunciator, antenna, and rack.   If anyone has some of this stuff on the shelf, let me know.  Waas is just not in the cards for me, as I need to seal a tank and pay for instrument lessons.  

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Browncbr1 said:

Thank you all for the very wise advice.  

I do have an iPad mini on the yoke and a stratux.    I also have a garmin aera510, so xm is also possible.   Someone mentioned an engine monitor.. Actually, that was the first equipment I added to this plane when I bought it.  Jpi830 with all the extras.   I have the accuflite and alt hold ready to install. (The switches will go at the top of the panel under the tape in the photo)

As I mentioned earlier, I got a ki-208 to replace my old #2 cdi.  It is in now.  I've attached a photo of the panel as it is now.  

I have no intention of EVER flying hard ifr.  I simply just want to get in and out when there are vfr ceilings of about 3000' min.  I was thinking about getting an Apollo gx60, or gnc300xl if I can find a super deal on either one.  I know someone that got a gx60 for $900 with annunciator, antenna, and rack.   If anyone has some of this stuff on the shelf, let me know.  Waas is just not in the cards for me, as I need to seal a tank and pay for instrument lessons.  

In looking at your  panel there is one thing that you could get that would make instrument flying a little safer.  For $2,395 at Aircraft Spruce you could easily replace the turn coordinator with a Castleberry Electric Backup Attitude Indicator.  That could be a life saver and is so much better than the turn coordinator.  An HSI would be nice, but too expensive.

[LANCECASPER]

Not sure if it's approved to replace a turn coordinator, but the Sandia Quattro fits in a standard instrument hole and has a battery backup for $2995. It backs up your attitude, altimeter, airspeed and VSI.

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/inpages/sai340-11-12817.php?clickkey=1466805

[donkaye]

Yes, that is another more expensive option.  it is certified for primary AI so it would work as a backup, too.

[N601RX]

Replacing the turn cordinator will interfere with his plans to install the autopilot he mentioned he was going to install.

[carusoam]

The TC is a precision device for use during standard rate turns in IFR flight training.

It can be simulated with bank angle and air speed.  Ask your CFII what he wants you to have.

The Sandia device would be a lot better at keeping the clean side up than the TC can.

Hmmmm, now I know what is going to fill in the old ADF hole....

I am enjoying spending Brown's I-money...

Get going on the training. Being able to climb and descend through cloud layers makes the rating very valuable.

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

Anyone have experience with the demon d2?

[carusoam]

This?

http://www.skydemon.aero/help/manual.pdf

or Garmin D2?

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/9594?qryrmv=1&ppcs=google&ppcg=4-95&keyword=garmin%20d2&gclid=COGqzYvykckCFYMYHwodRkUDQA

Could not find a Demon D2...

If you only have 5 AMU. Try to stay with the tried and true tools that other Mooney pilots are using.  You get lots of support that way.

Best regards,

-a-

[DXB]

On November 12, 2015 at 9:11:28 PM, Browncbr1 said:

Thank you all for the very wise advice.  

I do have an iPad mini on the yoke and a stratux.    I also have a garmin aera510, so xm is also possible.   Someone mentioned an engine monitor.. Actually, that was the first equipment I added to this plane when I bought it.  Jpi830 with all the extras.   I have the accuflite and alt hold ready to install. (The switches will go at the top of the panel under the tape in the photo)

As I mentioned earlier, I got a ki-208 to replace my old #2 cdi.  It is in now.  I've attached a photo of the panel as it is now.  

I have no intention of EVER flying hard ifr.  I simply just want to get in and out when there are vfr ceilings of about 3000' min.  I was thinking about getting an Apollo gx60, or gnc300xl if I can find a super deal on either one.  I know someone that got a gx60 for $900 with annunciator, antenna, and rack.   If anyone has some of this stuff on the shelf, let me know.  Waas is just not in the cards for me, as I need to seal a tank and pay for instrument lessons.  

I have a GNC 300XL with tray, MD41 annunciator, and antenna that were just removed from my plane to replace with a GTN 650.  I think it might be a tad better than the Apollo gx60.  Not yellow tagged but seemed to work just fine when removed.  Let me know if interested.

BTW I'm also gearing up for Instrument training, and your thread turned into an excellent read, particularly with the input from a seasoned CFII like Mr Kaye.

 

 

 

 

[carusoam]

Hmmmm,

IFR flight has moved more and more to using GPS over the last five years.  Getting a used GPS certified for enroute non-WAAS procedures makes a lot of sense. And leaves you some dough for my favorite training experiences like these...

MAPA training.  

Get the Mooney ops book, meet some people that really know Mooney ops, get to know people like you operating Mooneys.

 

Don Kaye training.

Get the Don Kaye's landing training DVD, then get the AOA.  Because you are not Don K, but you still want to land the way he does. 

I have really enjoyed spending these 5 AMUs with you!

Best regards,

-a-

[Browncbr1]

12 hours ago, carusoam said:

This?

http://www.skydemon.aero/help/manual.pdf

or Garmin D2?

http://www.mypilotstore.com/MyPilotStore/sep/9594?qryrmv=1&ppcs=google&ppcg=4-95&keyword=garmin%20d2&gclid=COGqzYvykckCFYMYHwodRkUDQA

Could not find a Demon D2...

If you only have 5 AMU. Try to stay with the tried and true tools that other Mooney pilots are using.  You get lots of support that way.

Best regards,

-a-

Sorry. Auto correct.   I meant to type dynon d2

 

[Browncbr1]

3 hours ago, DXB said:

I have a GNC 300XL with tray, MD41 annunciator, and antenna that were just removed from my plane to replace with a GTN 650.  I think it might be a tad better than the Apollo gx60.  Not yellow tagged but seemed to work just fine when removed.  Let me know if interested.

BTW I'm also gearing up for Instrument training, and your thread turned into an excellent read, particularly with the input from a seasoned CFII like Mr Kaye.

 

 

 

 

I'll send you a pm

 

[PTK]

Browncbr1, I would not spend 5K$ on a used 430. Personally, I wouldn't buy and install anything used. But that's just my way of doing things. 

What I would do is put that money aside in a GTN650 fund. Save and put more money in that fund until you have enough for a GTN650 installation.

You will pay installation costs anyway. It doesn't make any sense to install old and soon to be unsupported technology. 

That's what I would do and it's only my opinion.

 

[Browncbr1]

1 hour ago, PTK said:

Browncbr1, I would not spend 5K$ on a used 430. Personally, I wouldn't buy and install anything used. But that's just my way of doing things. 

What I would do is put that money aside in a GTN650 fund. Save and put more money in that fund until you have enough for a GTN650 installation.

You will pay installation costs anyway. It doesn't make any sense to install old and soon to be unsupported technology. 

That's what I would do and it's only my opinion.

 

Thank you for your advice.  

I had considered a 430 because an ifd440 slide in later would be easy, but I think you're right.  If you're gonna do it, just do it right from the start.   

I think, at this point, I should stay the course.   Finish AP install, get tank sealed, get rating and then see exactly how much instrument flying I end up doing.  Then, I might be able to justify it.   

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 11/12/2015, 12:12:45, donkaye said:

 

$5,000 gets you practically nothing of value, so if it were me, I would get the rating with the old technology, fly simple IFR like climbing and descend through a cloud deck, absolutely no hard IFR, and save up the money to get the avionics that will bring you into the present and provide much less risk and a greater margin of safety.

 

That's fine, unless he has a radio and an indicator that jump around and aren't even good enough for real training.  You're an active CFI.  How many client airplanes have you flown that have indicators that jump around like crazy on an instrument approach...or when tracking a VOR?  Then my suggestion above to have the best of NAV radios sticks.

[Marauder]

On 11/12/2015, 12:12:45, donkaye said:  

$5,000 gets you practically nothing of value, so if it were me, I would get the rating with the old technology, fly simple IFR like climbing and descend through a cloud deck, absolutely no hard IFR, and save up the money to get the avionics that will bring you into the present and provide much less risk and a greater margin of safety.

 

That's fine, unless he has a radio and an indicator that jump around and aren't even good enough for real training.  You're an active CFI.  How many client airplanes have you flown that have indicators that jump around like crazy on an instrument approach...or when tracking a VOR?  Then my suggestion above to have the best of NAV radios sticks.

That was my initial challenge trying to get my rating with condition of the avionics I owned. It delayed everything a couple of months while I upgraded and repaired stuff.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Danb]

But,Chris when you,Parker myself and many others got our IFR rating there was no GPS, just good old steam gauges, adf, couple vor's and the good ol Ils....Loran's were just starting to be the rage of the future. So if we had 5 grand  I didn't and saved got a wx-8 storm scope. 5 AMU's went quite a bit farther back then, many choices now except most are very expensive. Don's recommendation to get training is likely the best bet now in the future and for sure in the past.

 

[Marauder]

But,Chris when you,Parker myself and many others got our IFR rating there was no GPS, just good old steam gauges, adf, couple vor's and the good ol Ils....Loran's were just starting to be the rage of the future. So if we had 5 grand  I didn't and saved got a wx-8 storm scope. 5 AMU's went quite a bit farther back then, many choices now except most are very expensive. Don's recommendation to get training is likely the best bet now in the future and for sure in the past.

 

I'm commenting on Parker's perspective. There is a good chance the avionics that he currently has in the plane is not working up to a level that he could use them. My point is that the money should be spent on the existing equipment to make it functional. That is what I had to do. Yep, there were no GPS radios, but it still cost me money to get the stuff working.. And he won't get much for $5k.

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