What's with the turbo prop ego's

[LANCECASPER]

For a couple years I had the chance to fly a Meridian in a partnership. Ever since then I give way to turboprops when I am in my Mooney. The fuel burn down low in a TP is incredibly high. During initial training at SimCom they made the point that the mission in a turboprop or jet is to get as high as you can as quick as you can and stay there as long as you can. I agree some of them have egos but all their flight planning when it comes to fuel goes out the window when a controller restricts their climb initially or brings them down too early.

[CWM20f]

Had similar experience at Austin Exec a year ago. Had called in starting 10 miles out with King air closing in from my left. He arrived on down wind after I did. Got a nice view of the belly of his plane. Told him I'd follow him in and he gave me right of way and extended his down wind. (Guess he reliezed what he did). Funny thing is he said he had me on the "box" so I never figured out why he came in like that and that close. 

[Guest]

For a couple years I had the chance to fly a Meridian in a partnership. Ever since then I give way to turboprops when I am in my Mooney. The fuel burn down low in a TP is incredibly high. During initial training at SimCom they made the point that the mission in a turboprop or jet is to get as high as you can as quick as you can and stay there as long as you can. I agree some of them have egos but all their flight planning when it comes to fuel goes out the window when a controller restricts their climb initially or brings them down too early.

High operational expense shouldn't over ride airmanship or pattern etiquette.

Clarence

[MyNameIsNobody]

Flying VFR down below a low overcast on Sunday.  I was 10 miles north doing 140 knots.  A King Air called and I was vectored to 240 for traffic.  I finally reduced power as I was getting a ways away from airport.  (to west) I was then vectored back to 180 and slowed for King Air.  Not sure why (at the time) I got bottom slotted, but now the fuel flow and perhaps that he was IFR took precidence over my VFR approach?  Anyway, no biggie as it just gave me a few more minutes to enjoy in my Mooney.

I then sat at the threshold of 9/27 waiting to cross to my hanger.  Sat for a couple minutes idling and controller finally said "O.K. to cross 9er, but expedite for incoming traffic on ten mile final.  Alrighty then.

[Mcstealth]

During my PP training, I was on doing pattern work with my CFI. My instructor flew for companies and had a Citation X on the field he piloted. We were halfway down the runway on the downwind leg. Some kind of big twin called in at 10 miles straight in. I was at the threshold pulling the power back when my instructor said I should have extended my downwind and let the big guy land. He was still five out and I was turning on base. He then said I should have made a tight pattern and landed quick. I asked why and he gave a half hearted explanation of how fast the twin was coming in. The twin did end up doing some kind of maneuver to lengthen his landing.

My thoughts at the time were, "that damn twin knew I was there doing T&G's. He knew exactly where I was in the pattern as I announce crosswind, downwind, base, and final. he also knows how slow/fast a 172 is in the pattern", etc, etc.  I was actually a little upset at my CFI at the time as he implied I could have done something to help the faster guy.

I do know I wasn't experienced enough in the ways of the force to change my landing pattern. I by God was going to land.

Df

[Yooper Rocketman]

In neither case I noted did the turboprop need to delay their landing, in fact, it wasn't even close.  On the other hand, if I had deferred to them, I would have had a substantial delay.  In both cases, I was closer and lower, so clearly had the right to the airport.  I will always work with traffic in the pattern, almost always giving priority to the commercial carriers, medical flights or traffic moving faster that clearly will get there the same time or before me.  I just don't being lied to (as far as distance to the airport) by traffic coming in that expects all other local traffic to "get out of their way".  It's happened a ton more times than the two I noted in the original post.

[Danb]

I guess it's something we will always have to contend with including the fact most controllers haven't flown in our little planes. I was flying into Kilg yesterday told Philly approach I had Wilm. in sight she asked for me to keep my speed up to the runway. Being gusty and windy made for a tough landing keeping 150 until a mile out used all the tricks in the basket, my point is I had a very difficult approach and landing. I was almost to the hanger the Pc 12 touched down , then a few minutes later a Falcon jet. Turns out I should have just flew a normal approach to landing by the numbers instead of risking damage to my plane.

[Andy95W]

A few years ago, I was flying a big turbo prop into Champaign, IL.  At 2000 feet we had about a 50 knot headwind and we were cleared for the visual approach about 10 miles out and switched over to tower.  We were cleared to land #2 behind a Cessna on downwind.  The tower had a radar display screen that was slaved to the approach radar.

Yup, we were showing about a 110 knot ground sped, the Cessna 150 was showing close to 140.  The tower controller apologized when the 150's groundspeed dropped to about 25 knots on final!  To his credit, he explained why he did what he did and was very apologetic.

I won't apologize for liars and jerks.  I hope there is a special place in purgatory for them to always be stuck in the pattern behind a student pilot doing touch and goes in a tired old Cessna 150.

I will say a lot of times the turbo-prop pilot doesn't know what he's going to get when he approaches an uncontrolled GA airport.  When he hears "Mooney 123 on downwind", is he hearing a 100 hour Private Pilot in an M20C (like I was 20 years ago), or is he listening to Dan in his Bravo GX, or Yooper Rocketman?  If he hears a Cessna, is it a student pilot in a 150 or a retired airline pilot in a 182 RG?

But again, I am NOT making excuses for a guy being a jerk or a prima donna just because he happens to fly a turbo prop.

[Yooper Rocketman]

We always love to talk about the flights that went fast, but I have a few on the other side too.  I flew down to Orlando quite a few years ago.  Flight time from the U.P. of Michigan down was under 5 hours, so pretty impressive.  I was even asked to slow down going into Orlando Executive because I was closing in on a 7x7 (727?, can't remember but my passenger was impressed).  Anyway, about 5 days later while flight planning for the trip home, I found head winds from 75 knots at 6K to 90 knots at 12K.  I couldn't even think of going up in the flight levels.  So we headed back and ended up with two fuel stops (normally one for the Rocket).  Going into a small (cheap fuel) airport in Indiana, I had been seeing about 110 knots for the last hour.  We land and I complain to the line guy about how slow I was going.  He says "what you complaining about, the guy who just landed and fueled before you in a TBM was going slower than you".  He had been watching us on Flight Aware.  Ouch.

The flight time home (not total time) was 9 hours.

Tom

 

 

[aviatoreb]

We always love to talk about the flights that went fast, but I have a few on the other side too.  I flew down to Orlando quite a few years ago.  Flight time from the U.P. of Michigan down was under 5 hours, so pretty impressive.  I was even asked to slow down going into Orlando Executive because I was closing in on a 7x7 (727?, can't remember but my passenger was impressed).  Anyway, about 5 days later while flight planning for the trip home, I found head winds from 75 knots at 6K to 90 knots at 12K.  I couldn't even think of going up in the flight levels.  So we headed back and ended up with two fuel stops (normally one for the Rocket).  Going into a small (cheap fuel) airport in Indiana, I had been seeing about 110 knots for the last hour.  We land and I complain to the line guy about how slow I was going.  He says "what you complaining about, the guy who just landed and fueled before you in a TBM was going slower than you".  He had been watching us on Flight Aware.  Ouch.

The flight time home (not total time) was 9 hours.

Tom

 

 

If I am fighting a big headwind and doing like 120 - I think to myself what it would be like in the airplane I first trained in - the alarus - capable of 90TAS.

[Hank]

My wife has commented twice that she was glad we weren't in a Cessna. I forget exactly the first time, but the second time we were crossing the mountains west towards Knoxville, at sundown, dodging build ups at 10,000 msl / 28°F OAT, making 68 knots groundspeed while indicating ~135 mph.    Headwinds are no fun no matter what you're flying . . .  

[Jerry 5TJ]

Murphy says if you're #2 to land you'll be behind the Goodyear blimp with a Lear 25 close behind you. 

 

[WardHolbrook]

Murphy says if you're #2 to land you'll be behind the Goodyear blimp with a Lear 25 close behind you. 

 

I was the guy in the Lear in that position once. I'm not excusing bad behavior, not by any means, but that Lear can only slow down so much and even with the power pulled back, the fuel flows in the traffic pattern are eye watering. Put yourself in this scenario...

You're in the left seat of the company bizjet, nearing the end of a rather long XC flight and the weather is barely MVFR at the uncontrolled destination airport. There are one or two airplanes airplanes in the pattern shooting touch and goes. ATC clears you for the ILS. This is a not uncommon scenario and one I've also been in many times. Although it's not a big deal with many of the smaller single engine turboprops, it can be a problem in some of the larger King Airs, MU-2s and Cheyennes and just about all but the smallest of the jets. You don't want to get them much slower than 120 kts and with some popular jets it's even higher, up to 180 kts. At 2 to 3 miles a minute you don't have a lot of time to be dodging and weaving around other traffic once you breakout on the ILS in MVFR conditions. It takes cooperation and respect on both sides and plenty of communication. With two-pilot airplanes it's much easier to talk. In single-pilot aircraft things can and do get pretty busy. The good news is that in 40 years of flying turbine-powered aircraft I can count on one hand the number of times I've had an issue with bad behaving pilots - one was a crop duster who locals told me pissed everybody off on a regular basis and another guy was scud running in a Cessna Mustang and cut me off in the pattern. For the most part, it's been my personal observation that the guys in the pattern are more than willing to extend or do whatever needs to be done to accommodate the guys in the larger, faster aircraft and it is truly appreciated and usually reciprocated whenever possible.     

 

[Hank]

So there I was, coming down towards the ILS on my Instrument checkride, by the book at 90 knots, when a Lear is cleared behind me as #2. Then ATC asked him to slow down 50 knots. He queried with disbelief in his voice, Tower said he was behind a Mooney making 80 knots over the ground. I looked at the DPE and said, "Should I speed up for him?" We were still 8-10 miles out. He said, "Let's see what you can do."

So I raised the flaps, fed in some throttle and came down the glideslope at 130 mph instead of 105, reduced throttle just before the FAF, added flaps, dropped gear when I could and had a nice touch-and-go for the miss and off to the final Circle to Land at an outlying field where my Temporary Certificate was filled out and printed off.

We do what we can, but we also expect similar cooperation from the other guys.

Recently, I was flying into Auburn [KAUO] and a twin was inbound also. I was going for 11, he wanted 36. Judging by his tone of voice, he was frustrated that I didn't veer off and give him the whole airport. But I was on downwind by the time he was less than 5 miles out, and he didn't have to do anything to avoid me.

I also followed a jet there once, he beat me easily, and once again I didn't do anything different [other than watch him make a continuous turn from midfield-crosswind entry to downwind to base to final. He even stopped on the taxiway to watch my landing. Much nicer guy that the twin driver . . .

[Mooneymite]

 For the most part, it's been my personal observation that the guys in the pattern are more than willing to extend or do whatever needs to be done to accommodate the guys in the larger, faster aircraft and it is truly appreciated and usually reciprocated whenever possible.  

+1

Absolutely agree.  And:

"truly appreciated and usually reciprocated whenever possible."

[WardHolbrook]

Here's something fun that was in AVweb's "Short Final" section this morning. It show the cooperative nature of Mooney pilots and also the pragmatic realities of today's world...

I was recently flying my Mooney into an airport in Colorado. ... Listening on the CTAF, I heard a Citation X announce: "Citation N1234 about 15 miles west, landing." ... Trying to be accommodating, I replied: "Citation, Mooney is about five miles out, but I'll go to the VOR, then return and follow you. You're burning a lot more fuel than I am." ... Just after that, a voice came on the radio saying: "Mooney, don't do that. Make HIM go to the VOR. I'm selling fuel here at the FBO."

[jlunseth]

I once had the tower at FCM tell a Citation in front of me to keep up best speed for spacing.  I was the only other plane in the air.  Fist pump.

[Mcstealth]

You're in the left seat of the company bizjet, nearing the end of a rather long XC flight and the weather is barely MVFR at the uncontrolled destination airport. There are one or two airplanes airplanes in the pattern shooting touch and goes. ATC clears you for the ILS. This is a not uncommon scenario and one I've also been in many times. Although it's not a big deal with many of the smaller single engine turboprops, it can be a problem in some of the larger King Airs, MU-2s and Cheyennes and just about all but the smallest of the jets. You don't want to get them much slower than 120 kts and with some popular jets it's even higher, up to 180 kts. At 2 to 3 miles a minute you don't have a lot of time to be dodging and weaving around other traffic once you breakout on the ILS in MVFR conditions. .     

 

Again, training with my CFII in actual MVFR conditions, I was taught to listen to ATC. I dropped him off and went back up. Damn if a Lear was coming in above the deck while I was doing pattern work with a ceiling hovering between 1700 and 1800. Pattern altitude was 1600. I heard him receive his clearance, but he didn't once acknowledge me on the local frequency.

Lesson learned.

DF

[Amelia]

In general, I'm more than willing to offer to extend my pattern, veer away from the traffic pattern to let the big guys straight in on the approach, go ahead of me, or pull off to let the kerosene burner take off first. To their credit, if they're not ready to go yet, or can see I'm not going to be in the way, most will say, "no, you're fine. go ahead." I can't say I've ever had to pee so badly that I couldn't afford a little courtesy and common sense accommodation. That said, it does irk me when some self-important jet jockey thinks his concern at being 15 miles out trumps my short final on a for-reals instrument approach. I'll be long out of the way, I assure them in my sweetest old-lady voice.  That's at uncontrolled fields. It does my wicked heart good, though, at a busy controlled field to hear, "Gulfstream, hold short at Bravo, Follow the Mooney to the ramp."  And have the ramp guys park ME in front of the terminal. Ha!

[aviatoreb]

I remember about 6 months ago at our little rural airport, I got my little mooney fired up just before a charter PC12 fired up.  Then I started to taxi over to rwy24 which was favored by light winds.  I announced it of course.  But rwy6 is closer to the ramp.  In the short time it took me to taxi to 24, the pc12 with two prop pilots and their paying passenger had hustled over to 6 with the mild tail wind - I am sure they heard me announce I was heading to 24, plus we made eye contact as I went over to my plane.  Anyway just as I was announcing taking 24 for departure, they announced departing rwy6.  That was quite a game of chicken they played eh?  So I was ready to go and waited at the hold short of 24 as they took 6 and zoomed past me.

[PTK]

I wouldn't characterize it a chicken game necessarily Erik, nor do I think it's big egos.

At a very inneficient taxi fuel burn of almost a gallon a minute, they simply wanted to get airborn and up to their more efficient flight levels in the shortest amount of time. 

We little pistons need to understand what they're dealing with and try and help them out if we can. Even if it means we wait for them sometimes. We all need to coexist.

You did well by waiting for them. They expected you to understand and I'm sure appreciated it.

I would've gone the extra step and clarified with them if they'd like to go ahead of me.

Edited October 16, 2015 by PTK

[gsengle]

If they called first they were reasonable, but if you called first and they ignored and went, that's a serious charge... Sounds like they went first and probably didn't hold you up long...

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[Andy95W]

So then they should have had the common courtesy to get on the UNICOM frequency and say, "Do you mind if we use runway 6 and get out of here quick?"  I don't know of anyone that wouldn't say sure, go ahead.

A little courtesy goes a long way and doesn't cost anything.

[gsengle]

Agreed, but maybe they assumed you needed a run up, and if you hadn't called yet... Those pilots flying fractional PC12s can be under a lot of pressure and exhausted so I cut em slack as long as they stay safe and obey the rules...

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[Mooneymite]

If they called first they were reasonable, but if you called first and they ignored and went, that's a serious charge.

Ummmm.  Mostly this is a question of courtesy and common sense, but...

I don't think who "calls first" makes a bit of difference in the example case.  I think who is "ready to go" first is more important.  Sitting at the hold short line at a close runway waiting for a guy to taxi to a more distant runway just because he called first doesn't make sense.  In most cases, the airplane will be gone before there's any undue delay.

In another thread in a discussion about departing KTEX, a bizjet blocked access to the runway awaiting an IFR clearance....so, there are lots of different situations.  Courtesy and common sense should be practiced by all.