Balance Question, Dropping a wing

[carl]

I noticed I am always holding in a little left aileron.

If I left go of the yoke the plane , 1967 M20 E, will roll into a left turn. 

Will a weight difference cause this? More gas in the left side. Or cause I'm solo and on the left side.

Or is it that wing leveler, which the button is taped down. Should I have the wing leveler removed ? It does not work.

 

First step.  I will balance the gas and try again.

 

[carl]

I just saw the same question in modern Mooney section .

[Oscar Avalle]

Sounds more a rigging issue. But as a starter look at the wing leveler.

 

[Guest]

With the PC system disabled or not functional the plane should fly straight.  You may be in need of some rigging adjustments.

The basic PC system is still supported and easily repaired. I would not throw it away.

Clarence

[carl]

thanks 

i will not get rid of it yet . and check it.out.

[HRM]

I have had this issue and it turned out to be the PC.

Easy to check, just disconnect the left-yoke-horn button.

1st time it was the left-wing servo. Stood watching as the master himself replaced it on the tarmac in front of his facility at KGGG.

2nd time it was tubing that had come loose. IA found it during the annual.

[carl]

"Easy to check, just disconnect the left-yoke-horn button."

HRM is this something I can do ?

[carusoam]

Hold it down..?

there are a few MS methods for this...

1) use your thumb (not as effective)

2) use a 35mm plastic film canister (old solution)

3) use a large elastic band (most current temporary solution)

4) remove the button (it comes out, gets lost, or falls down the hole next to the J-bar)

5) remove the tubing (requires a mechanic to do properly)

 

burn fuel from the heavy side of the plane.  You may be pleasantly surprised at how well balanced the plane really is when the load balances out.  In smooth air it was possible to use the shifting weight technique to maintain direction of my old C.  Following the LCD version of the magenta line using my body weight was interesting.  Left corrections are harder to accomplish than right corrections...,

It will only be balanced perfectly for a few minutes.  To keep flying without ailerons, it would take switching tanks every 10 minutes or so, depending on your weight and ability to move.

this is an experiment that goes hand in hand with removing down trim by sliding your seat back while cruising...

fun stuff for engineers!

best regards,

-a-

Edited September 17, 2015 by carusoam

[Shadrach]

 

"Easy to check, just disconnect the left-yoke-horn button."

HRM is this something I can do ?

Carl,

As harley and others have said, disconnect the PC.  The easy way to do that is to pull the button completely out of the socket.  It is a friction fitment and while it can be rather difficult to remove, it is designed to come out (this is essentially a vacuum dump for the system). Stash the button in the ashtray is so equipped.  If the plane flies hands off, straight and level, ball centered with the button removed, that's an indication that it's pretty well rigged.

The other thing I would look at is roll trim. Have you verified it is working? Can you pick up the  dropped wing with the knob?

 

Edited September 17, 2015 by Shadrach

[carl]

Ok , i flew again 

First before I took off I removed the hold down for the PC . When I turn on the ground the ailerons want to correct . I then put the hold down back on and took off .

The plane flew pretty level , then when I took off the PC hold down the plane leveled itself and flew great.

I have balanced the fuel.

I don't have a roll correction for the PC, That would be cool. 

So one of two things;

1) fuel balance really makes a difference .

2) the PC wanted to turn left and was stuck until I released the hold down and that fixed it.

  I think I would like a roll adjustment , because I liked the  PC today. First time I used it. But I don't think I like it when I get close to landing or takeoff.

  Hmm 

 

Thanks all

carl 

 

 

.

[carusoam]

You are really going to love the electric rudder trim.  You get the same effect, but don't have to level the fuel load.

best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

Without a manual at home I can't check for you, but there should be roll trim in the control wheel or on the turn coordinator.

Clarence

[Shadrach]

Carl, my 67 has a roll trim knob on the turn coordinator. I can't see how yours would not have it unless something is broken/missing.

 

Edited September 18, 2015 by Shadrach

[carusoam]

Data point...

65C had the roll trim on the yoke as well.

best regards,

-a-

[carl]

ross . well i'll be damned ! 

On the turn coordinator .  yep. it even says roll trim . 

Clarence , the mooney i flew in before had it on the yoke . i assumed this one just didn,t have it . which was the reason for the rubber stopper from a crutch jammed over the yoke button.. really. 

electric trim... oh my

[carusoam]

The rubber device could be a good sign...!

the wing leveler may have been working, and that was the method they used to hold the button pushed to disable it.

best regards,

-a-

Edited September 19, 2015 by carusoam

[MyNameIsNobody]

Ok , i flew again 

First before I took off I removed the hold down for the PC . When I turn on the ground the ailerons want to correct . I then put the hold down back on and took off .

The plane flew pretty level , then when I took off the PC hold down the plane leveled itself and flew great.

I have balanced the fuel.

I don't have a roll correction for the PC, That would be cool. 

So one of two things;

1) fuel balance really makes a difference .

2) the PC wanted to turn left and was stuck until I released the hold down and that fixed it.

  I think I would like a roll adjustment , because I liked the  PC today. First time I used it. But I don't think I like it when I get close to landing or takeoff.

  Hmm 

 

Thanks all

carl 

 

 

.

Just to clarify, when you have the PC yoke mounted cut-off valve removed and turn with rudders on the ground the plane yoke is turning in the opposite direction of the turn?  That is NOT correct.  If the button is removed the vacuum should be released and the system should NOT function.  If the system is ON (button NOT pushed OR removed) it should respond as above in a turn on the ground.  You NEED a roll-trim adjustment with your system.  Your plane should have had it in the center of the pilot yoke by the clock.  Later models DID have the roll-trim on the T&B with the TC100 system.  Something is definitely NOT right with your PC system.  The vacuum pressure is NOT difficult to overcome with control pressure, but why fly a bus?  Get that sorted.  I do NOT notice any wing drop with fuel use, but I always try and balance fuel use on Cross Country trips.  Please let us know what you find is "off" with your system.  The PC is a wonderful safety of flight tool and when it includes heading bug Trak aid they make Cross Country navigation much more pleasant for a vintage system.  Good luck getting it sorted.  Call Brittain.  They have manuals for different PC systems and will provide you MUCH assistance in getting it fully operational.

[MyNameIsNobody]

Just saw your latest post with the addendum/On turn-coordinator.  THAT should help a lot

[Shadrach]

ross . well i'll be damned ! 

On the turn coordinator .  yep. it even says roll trim . 

Clarence , the mooney i flew in before had it on the yoke . i assumed this one just didn,t have it . which was the reason for the rubber stopper from a crutch jammed over the yoke button.. really. 

electric trim... oh my

You should swing by so I can have a look at your "new to you" bird and we can talk about other unique aspects of operating vintage Mooneys. Whoever checked you out should have gone through all of the systems with you.

[carl]

HGR is on my list . 

I have a picture of the gem showing a dead spark plug number 1 cylinder ,left mag. 

but on the left lower  is the roll trim . 

 

 heading bug Trak aid???? I never heard of that . I wonder if I have that too. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

You do not have the Accu-Flite.(Heading Bug Trak)  DG would have a heading bug and you would have an additional control box with Accu-Flite and rocker for ON/OFF.  You have a later model PC System.

[carl]

Thanks .,

I really like the PC . And with the roll trim , I will eve like it better. 

[Hank]

The PC system is very nice. Having tha AccuTrak with heading bug is wonderful! My box is mounted at the bottom right, beside the right yoke (not in this photo). Notice  the pointer on the DG, that's what controls the PC servos. Well, with a little help from another box mounted in the tail cone . . . The Roll Trim knob is hidden by the yoke.

[irishpilot]

I had the same problem with mine and it was fixed with a minor rudder trim tab adjustment. inflight the ball was slightly off-center which led me to the rudder and not rigging.

[HRM]

"Easy to check, just disconnect the left-yoke-horn button."

HRM is this something I can do ?

I am guessing that you have the Brittain PC.

If so, you should have the disable switch at the top of the left horn on your pilot side yoke.

Press-in or just pull out.