Money in the Flight Levels?

[Cwalsh7997]

Hey guys I was just wondering because I have a F model how other models perform at above 12500ft and around 15000ft and then around 18000ft is it even worth going up there on say a 1000 mile cross country? What kind of performance and fuel burn do you get?

[Cwalsh7997]

The title is supposed to say mooney

[Bartman]

I routinely cruise my J as high as necessary to stay where I can see the buildups and cells. Usually 11K or 12k but have been as high as 15K. It took a long time to go from 12K to 15k and we were doing about 200fpm at best near top of climb. As far as performance I don't remember exact IAS or TAS, but the controls did feel a bit mushy to me.

If the winds were favorable such as west to east flight I would climb and use the O2

[Bartman]

Best I can remember the density altitude was near 17,000 and fuel burn around 7gph running a few degrees ROP. My engine runs better with higher RPMs, and at peak or slightly ROP above 12k, otherwise I get the occasional hiccup about every 15-20 minutes. No benefit to LOP hat high.

[gsxrpilot]

I've been to 15K in my M20C. Unless the winds are very good, I wouldn't do it again. It just takes too long (time/fuel) to get there. But it will fly up there.

[Hank]

I took my C to 15,000 once, just to see what it was like. Calculated DA later to have been 18,600. Climb was extremely slow, I actually leveled off a few times to accelerate. The controls were very mushy, but the view was great! Don't recall the speeds, other than 90 mph in the climb. Practiced emergency descents on the way back down.

I don't think twice about cruising at 10,000; in fact, I recently came back from WV to AL at 10,000 msl in 3.5 hours. Sometimes I've gone to 11,000 crossing the Appalachians when the wind was high, just to minimize turbulence, but the climb from 9000 is nothing to get excited about. Usually, though, 10K is my limit.

[chrisk]

I've been as high as 21,000 feet.  The plane performs well, but I only go that high if there is a good reason and a long trip.  Tail winds and weather are two good reasons.  I've seen ground speeds as high as 212 kts, on 10 gph.  True airspeed was closer to 170.  (and yes I could go faster) As for climbs, I can maintain 500 ft/min the entire time.  I have a 231 with the Merlin waste gate controller.   

 

Also the trip needs to be long to make it worth while.  40 minutes to climb, and 40 minutes to descend.  Assuming a 120 kt cruise speed, the trip needs to be 400+ kts to make sense.

 

And cruising in the flight levels is really nice.  --In theory you don't need to look for VFR traffic and the altimeter stays at 29.92.  However, you need to pay attention to your O2 levels. 

[FoxMike]

I have been fying turboed aircraft for 40 years.  Sometimes you get enough tailwind to justify the climb time but other times you are better in the teens.  Lots to learn before you can do the flight levels safely.  Flying high is helpful and provides flexibility in travel.  You, of course, need an instrument ticket and a fairly well equipped airplane.  You will be climbing and descending through lots of cloud decks.

Walt 

[PaulB]

One of the nice features on Foreflight is the altitude selector.  If you've entered your climb rate and fuel burn it will calculate the fuel burn and time en route for every altitude.  Makes it a lot easier to figure out which one is best.

[RocketAviator]

I have flown my Rocket up to FL24. I Prefer higher altitudes when possible. Usually better weather and a lot less traffic most MOA I pass straight through.

I climb at typically VS 1000 to 800 ft min depdepending load temp etc.

I have never owned a non turbo so really no comparison.

Fly safe

[RocketAviator]

Last trip to San Antonio from El Paso we hit 288kts ground speeds with a 46kt tail wind @FL23 Fastest ground speed I have achieved.

[M20F]

It is all a function of TAS +/- winds. For a normally aspirated airplane flying above the altitude where you develop your cruise power setting (i.e. about 9000 feet to get 65% in a normally aspirated Mooney) generally is almost never worth it, unless some awesome winds. Even then you have to factor how long and how slow you are going to go getting high. The book is relatively accurate in terms of TAS and climb rates + forecasted winds, just do the math and you can make the determination as to what is going to get you there the quickest.

Key thing to keep in mind is forecasted winds do change. I have a Rayjay so a bit more practical to get up high, in order to keep cool in the climb I need to do 120-130mph which means 500FPM. Nothing worse than spending 40 mins climbing up and figuring out the best winds actually were 6000 feet below FL190 after you get there. Even worse than that is deciding to go back down to 13000 only to find the winds at FL190 were 30kts better given your current position :-)

[N201MKTurbo]

I've had my turbo J up to FL220. The turbo goes open loop and gets a bit unstable. That was to get on top of an area of severe icing. Gives you a bit of a pucker knowing if anything goes wrong you will come out the bottom looking like a hail stone.

I have flown my old F to 17000 and have flown IFR over the Rockies at 16000. It flew just fine. The TAS was down to about 130 if I recall.

[cliffy]

In my D/C I go 10.5 and 11.5 all the time. The TAS is down a bit from best altitude but its cooler

and smoother up there, out here in AZ. 12.5 is doable. (12.5 last week had a DA of 14.6)

Not much more out here with high DAs. Did KLAS to KABQ once at 14K (MEA) in the summer

and had a hard time holding altitude with down drafts.

No climb rate up there for mine.

[Shadrach]

If winds are favorable, 10 to 12,500 is perfectly useable in an F. I've had the plane at density altitudes in the 18,000s and it performs fine if you're under 2500lbs. As you get closer to gross, performance falls of quickly. I think the 200hp birds are practical at heavy loads up to DAs of about 15K. Climb deteriorates above 13,000 but it still climbs better than C150 at sea level in August. Step climbs are good practice.

[Oscar Avalle]

I fly my M20c usually at 11 to 13k with higher density altitudes. As mentioned before your TAS is not ideal but it is manageable. It just takes awhile to get up there and you have to be careful with the CHTs at least in my M20C

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

[Danb]

I assume the title should be "Nonturbo Mooneys in flight levels". I believe if weather and distance are a positive factor my M model likes 15000 ft plus. As Walt nicely stated one must be careful and ready, both plane and pilot once you get into hypoxia areas, even if my plane is performing flawlessly unless I also feel physically and mentally ready to fly in the flight levels I opt not to, most M models fly nicely at 10000 ft at 180+ therefore my reasoning to critique myself prior to wandering up above FL 180...to gain 20-30 knots..

[FlyDave]

In December of 2013 I flew my J to Texas to trade it in on a the Bravo. I went from o69 to BFL to somewhere in New Mexico for fuel and the to Texas. I climbed to 15,000' both legs and had a 50 knot tailwind the entire way. It was definitely worth the climb!

[Bartman]

Oh and in addition to the drop in temperature as you would expect, it gets really quiet up there too.

[Danb]

Ryan. Nicely stated..whenever there's a topic re weather folks start on the wx charts etc for making determinations instead of gathering experience in the actual conditions..I also have Jepp program and agree it sucks..it came as part of the g1000 package since I use jeeps in the bravo. Foreflight is awesome.. I thought I was well versed in wx. Until I bought my bravo in 2005 and found out via experience the extreme differences between say 6000 ft and FL 200. I can't add any more to your well stated items above...

[chrisk]

The Bravo was designed for flight in the high teens and low flight levels. If I'm doing a quick flight from Atlanta to Chattanooga (or similar for dinner) I'll climb up to 6-11K depending on where the clouds are, since in the summer there's usually scattered clouds and it's fairly bumpy. But on longer flights, I climb up into the high teens and low flight levels. Example, I flew Atlanta - Naples on Friday, and flew down at FL190, and routed myself over the Gulf because I hate central Florida flying (buildups and traffic), and coming home yesterday I flew at FL200. I had a passenger on board, and if it were just me, I'd probably have gone higher (less O2 being used). I still true out around 200-220ktas. 

 

I'm so used to flying in the flight levels and Class A airspace for work, that it's what I prefer. I never fly VFR either... Unless ATC wants to give me a ridiculous route, and then I'll cancel and finish the flight VFR. lol

 

I'm a 400 hour pilot, half of which are in my 231, so I have no where near your experience.  But I agree these planes perform best in the high teens and low flight levels.  As far as flying in class A, I don't do it that often, but I do find it a little more relaxing.  --No need to keep messing with the altimeter, and if I am honest, a little less vigilant on looking for traffic. (which shouldn't be there in theory)  I also usually fly IFR, excepting bad routes and departing from fields without a tower.

 

 

 

  

Operations around thunderstorms are very serious, and I wish more general aviation people would learn more about them. They are extremely hazardous, and can be very unpredictable. I find it a shame that so many people in the training environment harp on "how to read a TAF or METAR" etc, than actually learning how to fly the plane in weather conditions. 

 

 

 

 I always have to hit the "decode button" to read a TAF or METAR.   It's the only way I know I decoded it right.    

 

As for thunder storms, I flat out avoid them.   Ive seen far to many of those FAA/AOPA videos with the smoking wreck on the ground.   The one I remember most was a guy who flew right into a line of storms at night because he was using XM weather, which has a 15 minute delay before it gets to the cockpit.  This was near college station TX.     Fortunately flying in a turbo usually  means I can see storms and build ups a long way off.   It's not always the case, I've been in the soup at FL190 before and it doesn't work at night.   The storm scope and ADS-B weather help.  --In any case, I always try to have a plan B, C, and D when dealing with weather.  And to this I add plenty of fuel to get to good weather.

[FloridaMan]

http://mooneyspace.com/gallery/image/36166-/

[frcabot]

Been to 17K in Mexico on a hot day -- was about 18K or 19K density altitude. Had 2 pax, myself plus luggage so we were pretty close to MTOW. The last 1000 feet or so were at about 50 fpm and the stall warning horn would go off if I climbed any faster than that. Only way I'd make it to the flight levels is an empty plane on a cold day. Don't really see the point. If the weather is so bad that I'd need to be in the flight levels to avoid it, I'd rather just ground myself.

[Coty Smith]

On a slow Sunday afternoon I asked the controllers if they had time for me to take my M20E to 21,000 feet.  They said sure, think it will make it?  I wondered that myself.  I made the trip from Dallas to Memphis weekly.  I was able to make it to 21K, but it probably took 10 minutes to get that last 1,000 feet.  I stayed at 21K for about ten minutes and then asked for lower.  The manifold pressure was very low, I will need to see if logged it in my logbook.  The thing I remember most was the lack of controll.  It was extremely mushy and a little frightening.  They list a service ceiling of 21K for the E model. Technically, I hit the service ceiling at 20K or less (100 fps climb rate), but it made it to 21K.  I seriously doubt I will ever do it again.

 

I commonly fly 9 to 13,000 feet on longer cross countries with the E model, if there are good winds.  On shorter trips, I normally stay at 9 or less.

[carusoam]

How was your O2 level at altitude?

Best regards,

-a-