First Mooney

[ryoder]

I am going to be my IA's grunt on the annual opening up panels and stuff. Can't wait.

I will also have all the AD paperwork for him in excel ready to go.

I'll print the AD checklist and laminate it.

[Badmoonraising]

Gentlemen, 

 

I test flew in a 1976 M20F yesterday. Wow, what a nice airplane! Smooth and relatively quite. I have only one issue with this airplane. It has an auto pilot or wing leveling control that is on all the time. This is a nice feature and I can see how it offers some safety but  I am not sure if I would get tired of the heavy feeling to the controls? The owner says you can just put an elastic or velcro over the red button on the yoke to cancel it. I'm not sure if this is wise?

 

I would appreciate the input from you all regarding the value of this airplane. I have listed some of the particulars. It is an airplane that has been hangered. 

 

 

 

1.  Total Time Airframe:  2,057.8 hours

 

2.  Total Time on Lycoming Remanufactured “0” time IO-360 A1A 200 hp fuel-injected engine installed on September 11, 2010:  98.1 hours

 

3.  Total Time on brand new Top Prop Hartzell 3-bladed propeller installed on October 20, 2007:  228.7 hours.  Ten years from 2007 before Propeller Overhaul Due.

 

6. No corrosion issues identified.

 

7. Exterior paint 7 or 8/10; Interior 7 or 8/10.

8. To my knowledge is existing windshield/windows.

9. Replaced the door windlace approximately 3 years ago.

11. 4 place David Clark Isocom intercom.

12. speed mods-ailerons, flaps, flap hinges, tail, cowl landing light cover lens, removal of and installation pursuant to S.T.C. of a new oil cooler to rear of engine and therefore, cover plate over the previous oil cooler opening in front cowl.

13. two-axis Brittain auto-pilot coupled to Trimble1000DC G.P.S. and V.O.R.

14. Collins audio panel

15. King 87 A.D.F.; King DME

16. Collins Nav/Coms-1 glideslope and 1 V.O.R. --2-Com VHF-251 and Nav VIR-351; Collins transponder

17. Mode C transponder-Artex 406/121.5 E.L.T. installed October 19, 2009. Recertified December, 2012

18. Precision Standby alternate Vacuum; alternate static source

19.  Horizon Digital R.P.M. indicator and magneto analyzer-installed 2011

20. Engine is a Lycoming Factory Remanufactured with Authorized Release Certificate from Lycoming Engines signed on August 9, 2010. Engine signed off as installed in this Mooney on September 11, 2010. Engine comes complete with accessories including new ignition wiring, magnetos, fuel servo, vacuum pump, spark plugs, alternator, and light-weight starter.  I injected approximately $37,000.00 into this aircraft in 2010- Factory remanufactured engine, new oil cooler STC,  overhauled prop governor, new Horizon digital R.P.M. magneto guage, etc.

21. Immediately, before installation, the propellor governor was overhauled.  Also, a new oil cooler was installed with the S.T.C. moving the oil cooler from the front cowling to the rear. New engine rubber mounts and bolts installed.

22. Brand new 3-bladed Hartzell propellor installed October 20, 2007. Prop overhaul due in 10 years from that date.   The Top Prop New Hartzell Propellor-3 bladed has some interesting positive attributes stated by the manufacturer--example, less noise level, better rate of climb/descent, and, of course, it does look great.  It cost more than a 2-bladed one.  Cost me approximately between $9,000.00 to $10,000.00.  The propellor blades are in excellent condition.  It, of course, came with a new Hub.

23. A.D.s up to date.

24. Aircraft just had its I.F.R. static test on December 10, 2012 and not due for another 2 years. 406 Artex E.L.T. recertified at same time.

25. All 11 landing gear rubber "doughnuts" or "pucks" or "shock discs" replaced October, 2009. Mooneys don't have oleos so don't have to worry about nitrogen to keep up the gear to proper height.

26.  NDH;

27.  Annual done-August 17, 2012;

28.  New Gill battery installed December 22, 2011.

 

Other accessories included are tow-bar, cowl cover, interior window covers-to shield from sun, all manuals.

[Hank]

I love the PC wing leveler, and the Brittain AP even more. There is a thumb button, but I almost never use it. Most of my maneuvering is in the pattern, and the higher yoke force reminds me to not overbank. When flightseeing, I'll press the button for steep turns or turns around a point, photos, etc.

For traveling, the Brittain is a Godsend. Right now I'm 460 nm from home, and Brittain did most of it while I talked to ATC and monitored my position and progress. Other than departing the pattern at home and maneuvering for pattern entry here, I made one turn enroute, from 015 to 041, and I did that with the heading bug. In both patterns, I did not press the PC override button.

Good luck with your search! Make it a challenge to find a sound machine, and don't let it turn into drudge work.

[carusoam]

Last annual 2012?

The prop is visually in good condition because it is unused?

JUST had its...in 2012?

Sense anything unusual regarding the description?

The Good news is...You can take your time with this one, it doesn't seem to be going anywhere...

Did you just fly a plane that is three years out of annual, or is the sales description out of date?

-a-

[Shadrach]

Gentlemen, 

 

I test flew in a 1976 M20F yesterday. Wow, what a nice airplane! Smooth and relatively quite. I have only one issue with this airplane. It has an auto pilot or wing leveling control that is on all the time. This is a nice feature and I can see how it offers some safety but  I am not sure if I would get tired of the heavy feeling to the controls? The owner says you can just put an elastic or velcro over the red button on the yoke to cancel it. I'm not sure if this is wise?

 

I would appreciate the input from you all regarding the value of this airplane. I have listed some of the particulars. It is an airplane that has been hangered....

What's he asking? I don't beleive the Trimble 1000DC is suppoted anymore and Jepp stopped providing updates years ago.

Make sure the following service instructions have been performed:

SERVICE INSTRUCTION M20-112

SERVICE INSTRUCTION M20-208

[Yetti]

You can get the paper work from Brittian to install a switch on the panel to disable the wing leveler.  It is a simple ground out the unit and it will disable.

[Shadrach]

How does one "ground out" a pneumatic system? AFAIK, the only electric component of the wing leveler is is the T&B, which is what the system references to keep the wings level.

[gsxrpilot]

I'd be most concerned about the 98 hours since 2010. The airframe might be corrosion free, but that engine probably isn't. I decided about half way through my search for a Mooney that finding one that was being flow regularly and had always been flown regularly was one of the most important items on the check list.

[Browncbr1]

Sounds like a nice plane, I wonder if it comes with a nice price. . You'll like the brittain system. Actually, they have a plunger valve you can put in the panel to bypass the yoke button. You can pull it out to engage the system. It's just a vacuum valve to let the suction out. Actually, on mine, I can just pull the button out of the yoke and put it in the ash tray while flying around. In bumpy air when cruising, I'll put it back in and it is awesome how it holds in even in a lot of turbulence. I bought the accuflite and alt hold systems for it, but haven't installed yet. But, just wanted to tell you that you will probably really like the PC system if you buy that plane.

[Yetti]

How does one "ground out" a pneumatic system? AFAIK, the only electric component of the wing leveler is is the T&B, which is what the system references to keep the wings level.

 

 

 

by installing the 4085-20 solinoid valve assembly if it does not have one  

 

 

This plane would already have one:

two-axis Brittain auto-pilot coupled to Trimble1000DC G.P.S. and V.O.R.

[Badmoonraising]

Actually the airplane is in annual. I think the list was put together by the pervious owner. I is being regularly flown now 

 

What would you expect the value to be?

[Shadrach]

by installing the 4085-20 solinoid valve assembly if it does not have one  

 

 

This plane would already have one:

two-axis Brittain auto-pilot coupled to Trimble1000DC G.P.S. and V.O.R.

Thanks! I understand this. It was the "ground out" part that through me.

[Yetti]

This "tool" is maintained by sellers agents  so it can run a bit high if you are a buyer  http://www.vintagemooneygroup.com/M20FValuation.html  Like real estate look for comps on controller and trade a plane.  There are some cooler factory things about a later model F such as the one you are looking at.   It has a lot of the J model things in it.  Reclining/ Folding rear seats with removable independent seat backs.  A lot of the ADs apply to earlier model F, but the factory fixed them before the later ones were built. Throttle quadrant with landing light switch on throttle (you can label it "guns" or "missile"

[drapo]

Strong point in this Mooney is the engine low SMOH, weak point are the avionics. It would be worthy of your final list, those you will consider for a Pre-buy.

As far as value, I think The value should be around $65k Cdn ($50US), The results of your inspections could linfluence that amount a bit. Don't forget that if you want to fly IFR in the modern system, you need modern avionics, and that could add $10k to the bill. If you stick to VFR, radios are OK if they work and you can add an IPad or a Portable GPS. I don't think the included GPS is worth much.

Enjoy the search for the "Perfect for you Mooney"

[Guest]

Or, if your button won't pull out, you can just stick an old plastic 35mm film canister over the yoke horn to hold the button down and temporarily disable the PC system.

Jim,

Now you're dating yourself, 35 mm film is found only in museums.

Clarence

[Hank]

I've heard that broccoli rubber bands work. But I just don't bother with anything, it's not a real problem.

[gsxrpilot]

In my (completely unbiased) opinion the 1965 C is a far superior machine. We enjoy the 52 gallon tanks on the longer trips!

 

You must also have the extended personal bladder as well?  

 

When we're loaded down for a long trip, I really wouldn't want the weight of more fuel, and we're gonna have to stop and pee as well.  So our 52 total usable is just about right for us.

[Hank]

Ain't nothing wrong with any C that's in good shape!    I just flew 4.6 hours home, landed with 12 gallons in the tanks. Heading out the other day, I took off on the Left tank and climbed to 9500 msl. One hour after departure, I switched to R, then back to L after another hour. Then I got distracted fiddling with the cellphone, ATC handoffs and descending for arrival, plus looking at the field that I wanted to use to see why the runway was NOTAMed closed. [There was fresh black pavement on both ends, and one end had a black square in the older pavement, looked like they did away with the runway number. Not sure if it's an overrun, extension, or what. Should be finished on 12 June.]

 

At 3:25, the engine stumbled and caught. I checked the throttle, I had not bumped it. Then it stumbled and surged, and look! Still set for Left tank--switched it to Right and continued on the 12 remaining minutes to my destination. Flight time was 3:35 from wheels up to touchdown, used 36.7 gallons but that filled to the caps while I normally leave some expansion space. I'm logging 3.8 hours to cover engine on to engine off.

 

Left tank taxied out, ran up, climbed from 264 msl to 9500 msl, and flew for 2:25 duration [plus taxi & runup]. All on just 26 gallons. Not too shabby. Total flight was 461 nm, solo.

[Badmoonraising]

Well, I missed the M20F......F!  Actually the owner is taking a partner. Can't blame the guy for wanting to continue flying. 

 

The more I read here, the more I become interested in the E models. So here's my question; what's the difference between the 1964 - 1968 models. I've read opinions here that the 1967 M20E is the sweet spot. True? If so why? There were far more 1965 and 1966 models made. Like tons more. Somewhat interesting. 

[drapo]

When I was on the market, 5 years ago, my research led me to believe the 1965 to1967 M20E were the better years. "New" style windows, POsitive Control (available as a retrofit for earlier with aileron change), vacuum operated step and manual gears and hydraulic flaps. Inventory for those 3 years is around 900 (+/-60 for the 67 model), don't know how many are left in flying condition.

In this month's COPA, there is a VFR 65 M20E for sale outwest (Area code 250). If you're not a COPA member, I can copy and send you the complete ad. Asking price:$62500cdn with not much avionics, so a bit on the high side.

[Badmoonraising]

Thanks drape, I am a COPA member. That airplane is up in Fort St. John. IMO the guy is asking way - way too much. It has spent it's entire life so to speak outside in a very harsh environment. It needs a complete panel update. No, it's not a contender. 

[MyNameIsNobody]

Here is a quote from Aviation Consumer on Vintage M20: Mooney connoisseurs tell us the best Mooneys ever built were the 1966-67 models. These had most of the airplane's desirable features-the square windows, flush riveted wing, retractable step, optional manual landing gear, good corrosion proofing and the wide-deck engines. The 1966 E models seem to have the smoothest wings I ever saw, comments long-time Mooney mechanic Charilie Dugosh....

That "did it" for me back in 2000.

Good luck in your search.

[urbanti]

When I was shopping for vintage Mooney's I discovered that the individual differences in 50 year old planes were in some cases more significant that many of the model year differences.

Mid-time engines; six-pack panels; modern GPS's; autopilots; correct rigging that allows the plane to cruise at book speeds; straight airframes that fly in a straight line hands off - IMO these are very important differentiators.

Manual or electric gear, and bigger rudders are also choices you should consider.

Flush rivets; flap gap seals; speed brakes, paint schemes and interior corrosion proofing for me fall into the "nice to have" category, but I wouldn't disqualify an otherwise excellent candidate on those criteria.

regards,

Tim

[Browncbr1]

Here is a quote from Aviation Consumer on Vintage M20: Mooney connoisseurs tell us the best Mooneys ever built were the 1966-67 models. These had most of the airplane's desirable features-the square windows, flush riveted wing, retractable step, optional manual landing gear, good corrosion proofing and the wide-deck engines. The 1966 E models seem to have the smoothest wings I ever saw, comments long-time Mooney mechanic Charilie Dugosh....

That "did it" for me back in 2000.

Good luck in your search.

 

 

My exhaustive research found that the best were produced 66-67 also... 

I think I recall MAPA saying the flush rivets are good for 5kts improvement in the real world and the claimed performance was exaggerated 10-15kts when Republic owned Mooney.

[Badmoonraising]

Thank you gentlemen. I suspected as much. Now I know what I'm looking for. An M20E - 1966-1967. I may have to wait for the right one to pop up. Finding one in Canada is unlikely. I suppose I should get myself up to speed on the importation rules. In Canada we have rules for rules. It seems the Canadian government is against general aviation. It appears so anyway. Makes you wonder if anyone in their ivory towers ever thinks about where the airline pilots come from? They just assume pilots just happen.