Another POH question for my 65C

[ryoder]

My airplane came to me with a printed out Owners Manual and my new instructor said I should get something more official looking.  I agree.  I have emailed Mooney tech support for help on this.  

 

But here is something strange.  I checked the TCDS here http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/60107bc8954c93a686256c24005b5075/$FILE/2A3.pdf

 

It says that the M20C requires 401 a-g, any of them. Mine is SN 2932 so this TCDS is for mine.

 

Serial No’s. Eligible Serial No. 1852, 1940-3466, 670001-670123, 670125-670134, 670136-670149, 680001- 680077, 680079-680099, 680101-680198, 690001-690096, 690098, 700001-700052, 700055-700089, 700091, 20-0001 thru 20-1258. Under the delegation option provisions of Part 21 of the Federal Aviation Regulations, Delegation Option Manufacturer No. SW-1 is authorized to issue Airworthiness Certificates for Airplane Serial Numbers 2920, 2938, 2959, 2960, through 690022.

 

Required equipment In addition to the pertinent required basic equipment specified in CAR 3, the following items of equipment must be installed: ...401(a) or ( or © or (d) or (e) or (f), 601(a) or ( or © and (d). See Note 13.

 

This is an excerpt from the TCDS.

 

Interior Equipment 

401. FAA Approved Airplane Flight Manual

 (a) Flight Manual, dated October 20, 1961, required for S/N 1852, 1940 through 2622. 

 ( Flight Manual dated August 21, 1970, for S/N 700005 and on. M20C S/N 20-0001 thru 20-0009. © Flight Manual dated January 1974, for S/N 20-0010 through 20-1146. See Note 2. 

 (d) Flight Manual dated December 1974, for S/N 20-1147 through 20-1172. See Note 2.

 (e) Flight Manual dated August 1975, for S/N 20-1173 through 20-1185. See Note 2. 

 (f) Flight Manual dated October 1975, for S/N 20-1186 through 20-1218. See Note 2. Superseded by (g).

 (g) Pilot’s Operating Handbook dated October 15, 1977, for S/N 20-1240 and on (replaces (f) for S/N 20-1186 and on.)

 

I don't see any flight manual listed for my 65C SN 2932.  Am I missing something?

 

Also, the 65C Owners Manual (available online) has a supplement near the end that says 

"The F.A.A. approved flight manual is part of the required data for 1962 and 1963 models.  Placards in the aircraft and data in the owner's manual supercede theflight manual data for later models."

 

 

[ryoder]

Look what I found on this Aussie site.

 

http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD:1001:pc=PC_90265

 

List of aircraft that don't need a flight manual.

 

Mooney

M20, M20A, M20B US FAA 2A23

All (built pre 1967 when FAA approved data began to be included in the ?Owners Manual?)

 

 

M20C US FAA 2A23

1852 through 3466

?(i.e. all pre 1967 models)

 

M20D US FAA 2A23 All (all were built pre 1967)

 

M20E US FAA 2A23 101 through 1308 ?(i.e. all pre 1967 models)

[orionflt]

my flight manual for my 61 C model is just printed sheets put in a a report style binder with a label stuck on the front. it is the original flight manual from Mooney. I would not be concerned about looks, just that you have the proper documentation.

 

Brian

[DXB]

Yup I spent time scratching my head on this one when I got my '68 C SN 680002.  Communicated with Mooney tech support on it.  Turns out it doesn't require a flight manual.   I simply carry the aforementioned TCDS in my plane as proof that it doesn't.  

[ryoder]

Good idea to print the TCDS.  I'm going to do that and put it in the folder I carry with the weight and balance.

I just ordered a used Flight Manual on Amazon that says the cover is creased and grease stained.  Hopefully that will look authentic even though its not required.

[carusoam]

When I bought my C in Y2K, it came without a few documents...

They stayed with the original owner...

I called Mooney for replacements, they offered two ideas...

1) get the AFM for the 65C. This is a pamphlet with very little real data for real world use. It makes flying the plane legal, in an ARrOW sort of way...

2) get the POH for the 1977 C. This is a POH with the most data available for my C.

They had both on the shelf and were sent out immediately...

The advice came from the same guy (Bill Wheat) who had signed my airframe logs in 1965, 35 years later!

Try contacting the factory (or MSC?) to see if they would recommend the same. This idea is 15 years older than when I went through the process.

A few other docs you guys will like...

-Parts Manual that covers your AF.

-Service manual that covers your AF.

-Lycoming parts manual that covers your engine.

I got those from eBay...cheap.

Really helpful information to have when trying to describe problems to your mechanic.

Best regards,

-a-

[RobertGary1]

He's asking you to have an AFM. That is distinct from the POH or Owner's name. Basically the AFM is specific to your S/N (has your S/N written on it). In newer planes its signed by someone at the factory for that S/N but I don't believe they did this in the 60's. However, the AFM is required to be updated with your STCs. You'll notice that STCs list AFM changes that need to be made. A common example is an auto pilot install. It changes your AFM with instructions on what to do if it catches fire, etc.

 

In a 80's era airplane the difference between a POH and AFM is about 3 times the price from the factory. That signature is expensive so if you have it don't lose it.

 

-Robert

[Hank]

Slight digression--Robert mentioned changing the AFM for AP install "in case it catches fire."

I don't have my Owners Manual on the tablet, but I can quote Section V. EMERGNCIES by heart:

In case of engine fire, close cabin vents.

Then there's a brief statement about avoiding ice, how to crank down the gear, alternator resetting and PC system failure. But the "in case of engine fire, close cabin vents" will always stick with me. The 172 I trained in had about 8-10 steps to do in case of engine fire . . .

So maybe updating these things from time to time would be beneficial . . . . Ya think?

[ryoder]

I am pretty sure my type certificate doesn't require a flight manual.

However this is the response I got from Mooney.

I show your aircraft to use an Owner’s Manual P/N POH-001184 and can be ordered thru any of our Mooney Service Centers (found on our website) – The vintage model Mooney’s used an “Owners Manual” with a Supplement AFM criteria added (see link below)

AFM Supplement - http://www.mooney.com/afm-supplements/(see M20C Model)

Find a Mooney Service Center - http://www.mooney.com/service-support/find-a-service-center

[RobertGary1]

The important thing is that, even if your plane was not certified with a POH that you have an AFM to include all your STC updates. Its personalized for your S/N by you and your IA. The FAA believes that if you catch fire you will want to pull out your AFM and read the section that talks about what to do with your after-market autopilot ,etc. Even things like engine monitors, etc will have AFM updates. IFR GPS's always do as well.

 

-Robert

[orionflt]

not true:

§21.5   Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

(a) With each airplane or rotorcraft not type certificated with an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual and having no flight time before March 1, 1979, the holder of a type certificate (including amended or supplemental type certificates) or the licensee of a type certificate must make available to the owner at the time of delivery of the aircraft a current approved Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

( The Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual required by paragraph (a) of this section must contain the following information:

(1) The operating limitations and information required to be furnished in an Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual or in manual material, markings, and placards, by the applicable regulations under which the airplane or rotorcraft was type certificated.

(2) The maximum ambient atmospheric temperature for which engine cooling was demonstrated must be stated in the performance information section of the Flight Manual, if the applicable regulations under which the aircraft was type certificated do not require ambient temperature on engine cooling operating limitations in the Flight Manual.

[Amdt. 21-46, 43 FR 2316, Jan. 16, 1978, as amended by Amdt. 21-92, 74 FR 53385, Oct. 16, 2009]

because his aircraft was built and flown before 1979 and did not come with a flight manual he is not required to have one. this does not void the requirements to carry flight manual supplements that may be required by installed STC's

 

Brian

[ryoder]

I think I don't need one too. I don't have any STCs that require a supplement except maybe the halogen landing light or lightweight starter. I'll have to check on those.

I just got off the phone with Mooney and they were helpful. The guy is going to send me his PDF of the 65 owners manual.

He said to include the addendum in the weight and balance info to make a flight manual but the addendum linked in their site was from 1962 and lists the usable fuel at 48 gallons and that is incorrect for a 65. It also has 95mph as VY but my owners manual says 105mph.

[RobertGary1]

not true:

§21.5   Airplane or Rotorcraft Flight Manual.

 

because his aircraft was built and flown before 1979 and did not come with a flight manual he is not required to have one. this does not void the requirements to carry flight manual supplements that may be required by installed STC's

 

Brian

 

I don't believe anything you posted disagrees with anything previously said.

 

-Robert

[orionflt]

I don't believe anything you posted disagrees with anything previously said.

 

-Robert

well Robert, that is your choice. but you are disagreeing with the FARs. the blurb i posted came right from the FAA site, you can tell them they are wrong.

Brian

[RobertGary1]

well Robert, that is your choice. but you are disagreeing with the FARs. the blurb i posted came right from the FAA site, you can tell them they are wrong.

Brian

 

Ok, if you find a part that disagrees feel free to share it. 

 

Thanks

-Robert

[RobertGary1]

You probably already saw this but Mooney has the AFM for M20C's dated back to 1961 here entitled "F.A.A. Approved Airplane Flight Manual Mooney Mark 20C"...

 

http://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/mark20c_afm.pdf

 

Would need to add S/N, STCs, etc.

 

-Robert

[carusoam]

The POH for the most modern C is replete with performance data charts.

The kind of data that calculates take off and landing distances under various conditions.

The POH for the C is about 90 pages of usable data.

A POH for a modern Mooney is at least 3X that, not including the GPS and AP pages....

Try not to short change yourself...

The AFM is good for avoiding legal situations, the POH is better for avoiding lethal situations...

That's why I bought both. It is hard to believe that this important data isn't made readily available.

The NJ Mooney group lost a J pilot for not having/using this type of data.

Avoid loading a plane and departing from a high DA airport without it...

Keep in mind the 60’s did not have safety in mind. Cars didn't have seat belts or airbags. A 70’s POH is like improving the safety of your vehicle. Kind of like getting shoulder belts...

Or did I miss something?

Best regards,

-a-

[ryoder]

You probably already saw this but Mooney has the AFM for M20C's dated back to 1961 here entitled "F.A.A. Approved Airplane Flight Manual Mooney Mark 20C"...

 

http://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/mark20c_afm.pdf

 

Would need to add S/N, STCs, etc.

 

-Robert

Yes I have seen that. Mooney has it on their site and they pointed me to it. It looks promising and I can add my legit factory original w&b to that but there are two problems. One is that it says 48 gallons instead of 52 and the other is that it doesn't have my SN and tail number. I would also have to get it printed out nicely. One strange point about that thing is that the current TCDS now lists that 1962 doc as the right doc for a 65 one one page and not the right doc on another in note 13. The older TCDS thst I linked to in this thread shows no required manual option for my 2932 sn. I think I'll print out the TCDS, that manual and also have the 65 POH and. Newer POH in the airplane with my w&b. This way if I get ramped I'll have my nases covered.

[ryoder]

The POH for the most modern C is replete with performance data charts.

The kind of data that calculates take off and landing distances under various conditions.

The POH for the C is about 90 pages of usable data.

A POH for a modern Mooney is at least 3X that, not including the GPS and AP pages....

Try not to short change yourself...

The AFM is good for avoiding legal situations, the POH is better for avoiding lethal situations...

That's why I bought both. It is hard to believe that this important data isn't made readily available.

The NJ Mooney group lost a J pilot for not having/using this type of data.

Avoid loading a plane and departing from a high DA airport without it...

Keep in mind the 60’s did not have safety in mind. Cars didn't have seat belts or airbags. A 70’s POH is like improving the safety of your vehicle. Kind of like getting shoulder belts...

Or did I miss something?

Best regards,

-a-

I'll get the latest C POH also. I like the charts and procedures for safety.

[Hank]

Check the Documents section here. There are several C Owners Manuals there, including my 1970 one.

[ryoder]

The mystery continues.

I was looking at the wrong TCDS initially but now that I am looking at the current one, all the serial numbers no longer match.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/cd54a24fc81bae1c86257df20054b12c/$FILE/2A3_Rev_56.pdf

My M20C is SN 2932 and the SNs on this TCDS are all very large numbers.

[DXB]

The mystery continues.

I was looking at the wrong TCDS initially but now that I am looking at the current one, all the serial numbers no longer match.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/cd54a24fc81bae1c86257df20054b12c/$FILE/2A3_Rev_56.pdf

My M20C is SN 2932 and the SNs on this TCDS are all very large numbers.

Huh.  I've never seen this one- just the previous one you linked to.   This one says I DO need an AFM- after hearing from Mooney that my plane doesn't have one.   Confused.  The AFM on the mooney website only appears to cover through '66 (http://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/mark20c_afm.pdf), Some data in this clearly don't apply to my plane.  But this TCDS clearly indicates an AFM for '68 is available.  The mooney site also lists a part number for the "OM/AFM/POH" for all years here (http://www.mooney.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/POH_LOG_10_2010.pdf).  I wonder if this is just the standard POH, which I already have.  I need to contact them again.

[DXB]

The mystery continues.

I was looking at the wrong TCDS initially but now that I am looking at the current one, all the serial numbers no longer match.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/cd54a24fc81bae1c86257df20054b12c/$FILE/2A3_Rev_56.pdf

My M20C is SN 2932 and the SNs on this TCDS are all very large numbers.

Ok this is driving me nuts. The updated M20C TCDS that you linked to (revision 56, dated Feb 19, 2015) does clearly say that my SN 680002 needs a flight manual.   Of course when I originally organized my paperwork in December-January to make sure I'm legal, I was looking at  the previous one that you linked to, dated 2002, that implied I did not.   This is what I have in my plane in addition to a handful of AFM supplements.  I got it directly off the FAA website in December by looking under the tab that lets you search "by make (TC holder)".  It was the only TCDS version available there, covering all M20 models.   But then there is a separate tab to search "by revision history," and it shows multiple revisions since 2013, with the requirement for an AFM for my SN (and yours) added in Rev. 54, 10/24/14.   They just updated the document under "revision history" tab, but not under the "by make" tab until very recently.  It'll be fun trying to explain all this at my inevitable ramp check this weekend.   [Deleted government bureaucracy rant].  Time to ask Mooney again for the official AFM for the '68C- the only one they have on their website includes data up to '66.   Also I bet most folks with mooneys of all years and models who looked for the TCDS have only accessed the 2002 version...

[ryoder]

I spent about three hours on my day off yesterday tracking this down and I still don't know what is required.

[ryoder]

I just received my original 65 M20C manual and it smells legit old. This will impress the hell out of the feds and examiners on the checkride.