Rik Posted January 22, 2015 Author Report Posted January 22, 2015 I used to fly from north of SF to Orange County KSNA a lot: Over 120 round trips in about 11 years, that's a fair amount. About 3/4 of the time I was solo. The non-turbo Mooney did the job well, save for those days in winter storms when I elected to ride the Kerosene Queen or wait a day for better weather. Generally 25-27 gallons each way, averaged over N and S bound routes, and 2.5 hours enroute average. Best ever was 1.4 hours but there was a heck of a wind at 9000 that day, nearly 100 knots on the tail. Worst was over 4 hours N bound: over Van Nuys I was showing 60 knots on the GPS and the trucks on the Grapevine were passing me, also memorable. Never had to stop for fuel, but did divert for weather a couple of times. I know it is possible to go into Los Angeles area VFR but I always, bar none, went IFR. South-bound route was usually LHS V459 SLI with vectors N of SLI to fly H180 to the Queen Mary and then a serpentine into the arrival flow for 19R (now 20R). Departing SNA towards the north you can file for anything you like but you will get the Anaheim5 departure. Hard to fault a solid no-frills Mooney for that mission. Just noticed your in San Rafael also. Small world Quote
kmyfm20s Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I fly my plane to work 2-3x per week for a lot less time savings than you would benefit from. I love it and it is so much more fun and relaxing. It looks like your highest MEA would be 10k for a short bit so I would go with a no turbo model at whatever your budget could afford. Uber has been great in the KSBD/KREI airports which I fly into so it could only be better at KONT but then again KONT might have cabs ready to go. Good luck and have fun! Quote
Marauder Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe I am confused... Well forget the maybe. Looking at the spec's on Trade A Plane and other for sale sites, the M20J has a cruise speed of 201 mph and this fit's my goal/desire. Everyone seems to be stating that the speeds are lower. Is this due to wind, age or ? I alway's look at each plane's cruise speed and fuel burn to gauge if they will meet my needs. I would like to be in the 80-100K range for the plane is the budget I am trying to go by. The key seems to find a plane that does not have 20-25% of the life left till TBO but a lot of people run the plane and then sell it before they have to invest $$ in it. As for hours.. I've got to do what is safe, smart and wise financially. Looking at other's here they basically got their PPL and then got an airplane they wanted. Ideally I would love a Lancair but I would love to see tomorrow even more so that plane is out. Not being naive, it will take X hours just to get a PPL (reading the horror stories it could take more hours than most had prior to getting their Mooney) Everyone says get a plane that fits your mission. V Tail Bonanza. Fuel burn is to high and rebuild's are to expensive Cessna 210. Fuel Burn is to high and rebuilds are to expensive Bellanca Viking. Fast but fabric and wooden wings. Not Cessna 182, same $ as a Mooney and not nearly as fast nor efficient Piper Cherokee. To slow, fast versions to expensive Cirrius, just cannot swing that high ($) and the fuel burn is also to much. Newer planes are just toooooooo much $$$$ for me to afford. Vans, home-built... The good/bad/ugly and there is so much of a spread between them that it's hard to judge as no two are the same. However a RV7 with a Deltahawk Diesel is a fast efficient plane. So this leads to the Mooney. Some 231's fit the budget range, although I don't know anything about one model to the next, the 252's are turbo charged and that might be far to much $ on maintenance cost due to the turbo. The Acclaim's are the prettiest of the Mooney's but far to much $$ for me. What are the things that one should look for when looking at a Mooney? Everwhere I read they mention that the tanks leak, they corrode and they are tiny inside. I'm only 5'9" so the size is less of an issue to me but fuel leaks are a serious one along with corrosion. Buying the plane is only the start of the voyage. If you're all in money is $80k to $100k, I would buy as much plane as you can on the low end and expect to be investing in "something" in your first years of ownership. The static drain port I just bought set me back $127. Fixing an older radio recently when I look at the fuel and multiple attempts to repair it will set me back another $1000. Add in the incidental expenses, the planned expenses, the unexpected expenses and the actual operating expenses, Southwest will be a bargain. The actual operating cost per hour can be staggering if you are factoring in the stuff above and the reserves. As for the planes, the 201 mph was the speed claim after LoPresti added the speed mods to the design. Think of it like car MPG. Things to look for: 1) A mechanic who knows Mooneys to do a pre-buy. 2) Leaking fuel tanks. In the wheel well and around the rivet areas. 3) SB 208 - corrosion of the steel frame. 4) Corrosion anywhere. 5) Working equipment. You will be surprised what it can cost to fix some things. As for the size, the rumors are true. A Mooney is wider inside than a Bonanza. I'm 6'4" and at one time weighed 290lbs. I fit fine. At 5'9", you may need rudder pedal extensions. All depends on your torso to leg dimensions. My advice? Don't focus on one plane. Get your license, starting renting and building time towards your instrument rating. Find an FBO that can get you through the high performance and complex checkout. Start renting the planes above if you can. If they are not available, go to forums like this one and see if you can fly with someone who owns one. Make the selection only after you know your real mission and what your habit will financially support. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 There is a J for sale here somewhere at $55k or so... It is a great idea to buy a logical first plane. Get used to flying and then incorporate it into your life and lifestyle... For your budget, you will get a whole lot more of a plane... You are familiar with the PPI and what an MSC are... They are both good to know to protect your wallet. Get to a fly-in, talk to pilots, ask questions..... Best regards, -a- Quote
bonal Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Personally I think most people that own an airplane unless incredibly well off have to be a bit nuts. Always remember the 3 F's. The most important word in all of this IMHO is patience. Good luck lots of fun and frustration awaits and welcome. 2 Quote
schule Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Rik, Welcome. As in everything on the web you will get as many opinions as there are folks providing posts. Lucky for you though, you picked a good place to start. Mooney makes for a great cross country machine at relatively low cost. Good speed and stable. Highly recommend to try out a Mooney if you can find someone near you going up for a weekend proficiency flight. All the models from the front seats are within a an order of magnitude of each other. The speed thing is only tough if you train your mind to think slow getting your PPL. There are planes that fly 180 on final, and they get soloed within 10 hours using a very structured training plan. A transition from a Cessna trainer to a Mooney can be difficult because of the challenge changing the basics you first learn in the simple Cessna 172, but bouncing landings in a Mooney can get expensive. A 172 RG for the first few hours learning to land and transition to a Mooney through your PPL may help defeat the negative effects of Primacy and build the skills you will need to get out on your own better prepared. Good structured training is more important IMHO than the speed concern. This advice is warranted at the price purchased. Good luck. Quote
Ftlausa Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 At the risk of redundancy, you probably want to seriously reconsider the idea of going from 172/PPL to a 180kt, complex plane. I am sure there are those that have done it successfully, but you are going to a steep learning curve AFTER you get your PPL. As others have said, I would strongly recommend you make incremental steps up to that sort of plane. You always want to be ahead of the plane, not the other way around. I personally went from a 172, to a Warrior, to a Tiger, to a DA40, and then to the Mooney. The Mooney was the first one I owned. You don't necessarily have to go through that many planes stepping up, but going from a 172 to a J,K or R model Mooney is a big step with 40 hours under your belt. I am not sure you could get a reasonable insurance rate at the experience level. Good luck. Quote
chrisk Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Maybe I am confused... Well forget the maybe. Looking at the spec's on Trade A Plane and other for sale sites, the M20J has a cruise speed of 201 mph and this fit's my goal/desire. Everyone seems to be stating that the speeds are lower. Is this due to wind, age or ? I alway's look at each plane's cruise speed and fuel burn to gauge if they will meet my needs. Take a look at this article. http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20K231%20Eval%20Files/M20K231_Eval.htm It will give you a good idea of how fast a Mooney is, when flown in a realistic way. That is at 75% power. Also, some folks fly with less than 75% power for fuel economy reasons, which can actually make your trip take less time if you can avoid a fuel stop. When you see number like 201 MPH for the M20J, or 231 for the M20K, they are written by the marketing department. --You can get the plane to do that, but you probably have to run the engine at 100% power. And if you do that, you will be buying a new engine soon. And to be clear, it is not just Mooney that gives performance numbers like this. Every other plane manufacturer does too. The best way to tell when trying to choose is the performance charts in the POH with power set at 75% percent. Even then, expect some to be 10Kts optimistic. Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Rik, in another thread here we found that many of us, myself included, were flying Mooneys with less than 100 hours TT. So when you know which plane fits your mission and budget you will be able to handle the plane with proper transition training. My concern would be maintaining a commute schedule before you are instrument rated. IMNSHO 3-400 mile cross country flights twice a week cannot be safely conducted VFR in my part of the country. It is my impression that the same would be true along the Pacific coast. But if you can afford to buy a M20E, M20F, M20J -- all of which can cruise @ 175 mph (150kts+) -- and if you understand you'll mostly be still commuting on the airline until you build some time in your Mooney, $80,000 will buy quite a lot of these models. The M2E and the M20F were the predecessors of the famous M20J (201), similar engine (200 hp 4 cyl, Lycoming), similar maintenance cost. Given the fact that you expect to be alone most of the time you should be open to any of these models. All these planes are "old" -- the Es and Fs at least 40 years old and the $80k Js at least 30 -- what you need to look for in addition to to PPI items mentioned are engine time and updated panels and in the case of the older models how many of the 201 features have been added. But plane ownership is somewhat expensive. Hangers might cost $4000 per year, much more in some areas, Insurance for this type plane will be $3000 or so for a year or 2 and stay at about $1500. Your annual will probably run $2000 a year or more, probably much more the 1st year. GPS subscriptions once you're IFR qualified and equipped might exceed $1000 per year for modern GPS units... And that's before you bought the first gallon of avgas. Here's a link that will help you sort through the complex history of the M20: http://www.mooneyevents.com/chrono.htm 3 Quote
Z W Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I've got to do what is safe, smart and wise financially. You've just described the airlines. No single-engine piston aircraft fits any of those categories . That's a joke. However, I'll suggest that you do not yet know what you don't know. Keep working on your PPL and instrument rating, and read this site and maybe some other aircraft sites daily. Beechtalk.com is probably the most popular. You are asking the right questions and getting the right responses. Mooneys are great. We've owned a C and a K model. The C was an honest 140 kt plane. The K is an honest 170 kt plane. We owned both at the same time for a while and really compared them side-by-side. To be honest, the speed did not make a noticeable difference in how I flew. The amount of time difference for a flight varied more on how quick I was with the pre-flight, time spent doing pattern entries or approaches, and headwinds than it did the speed of the plane. The turbo made a huge difference, allowing me to top weather and get to favorable winds, as well as visit mountain airports. It also hasn't cost much to maintain. Whatever you do, keep with it. We don't fly for financial reasons, time saving reasons, or safety reasons. We fly because life's too short to stay on the ground. 6 Quote
Amelia Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I went from a C150 to a C172- for several years, 500 hours, and an Instrument Rating, then to a partnership in a Mooney 231. I see no reason why you can't go directly to a high performance airplane, but you do have to take the training seriously. Don't hurry through it. The more hours of experience, ideally ongoing, you can acquire with an experienced Mooney pilot along for the ride, the better. They're great airplanes, but way different systems and handling characteristics from your trainer. Lots of hours early on with an experienced Mooney pilot, and reading everything you can get your hands on, will teach you the ropes, and believe me, there are a lot of them, not all of them covered in the POH. The thing about a Mooney is that it is slippery. Makes it a joy to fly, and a joy to buy gas for, compared with similarly-advanced airplanes, but it also makes it unforgiving of sloppiness and inattention. You can get yourself in weather trouble in a hurry at 160 knots. An instrument rating provides valuable discipline as well as a convenient way out, especially if you set your personal minimums high, and stick to them for a good while. And about slippery: if you're over the fence to a short field at 100 knots, you need to go around now. They don't slow down well, even with full flaps. Oh, and about that gear: checking the gear down, out loud, on downwind, base, and final is a good idea. Turbo or not turbo? I love my turbocharged Mooney, even though I live at 8 feet MSL. You live where there are significant hills poking into the sky, so a case could be made, especially if you were to find one beautifully equipped at a good price. It's a long way to the nearest hill from here, but that fan gets me over the hot, humid, murky and bumpy air all summer, gives me lots more altitudes from which to choose, including the ones with 40knot tailwinds, it makes hopping over the Rockies and Sierras no problem even on hot days. That turbocharged 1100'per minute rate of climb even through the teens is a real spoiler. Most M231s are fairly well equipped from the outset, and buying your avionics already in the airplane gets you a nice discount. That said, it ain't no bargain. If you are quibbling over 2 or 3 gallons per hour fuel burn, maybe you need to stick with a 150, and leave earlier. Two thoughts about How much does it cost? It's like the old saying: "If you have to ask the price, you can't afford it." And all airplanes are like marriage licenses, it's not the initial $2, it's the forever-after upkeep that'll get you. 3 Quote
N601RX Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I went from a C150 with a little under 70 hrs and not flying for 2 years to a Mooney. The insurance was a little expensive the 1st year and they required 15 hrs of dual instruction. Quote
jlunseth Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Yes, there seems to be some confusion about rated speeds. First, most of us think and talk in nautical miles per hour. To get to a speed in miles per hour, you multiply nm/hr times 1.15. So an aircraft like my 231 that has a cruise speed (which depends alot on altitude), but lets just say 170 to make it simple, that aircraft actually cruises at 195 mph. The "201" and "231" numbers that were used to market Mooneys were not cruise speed numbers however, they were balls to the wall 100% HP numbers, that's number one. And as someone mentioned, you don't want to run an engine like that you will be buying a new engine pretty quickly. Second, they were max altitude numbers. An aircraft goes faster as it goes up in the air column just because there is less air and less friction. However, here is where normally aspirated vs. turbocharged comes into play. The normally aspirated engine will start to lose the ability to achieve max horsepower the minute it leave the ground, and loses more as it goes up in the air column. So to get to the 201 number they took the J up to an altitude where it was still making decent horsepower and was decently fast. I don't remember the numbers, but there are some good articles on the MAPA website that talk about the development of each aircraft, you can look them up if you are really interested. The turbocharged engines, on the other hand, can make 100% HP up to quite a high altitude (it varies with the model and the particular engine set up), so basically the same model aircraft, if turbocharged, can go higher and will have a higher cruise and maximum airspeed at the higher altitude. There are several tricks to all this though. To get the max rated horsepowers, or the highest cruise speed, you need to go up. In the turbocharged aircraft you will go high enough you will need oxygen, a built in system is best. If you are truly look for a plane that will cruise at 180 miles per hour, then just about any Mooney will do it, but the F model on up for sure. But you also need to consider practical issues, for example, if you are a VFR only pilot, there are going to be alot of days where you either can't fly, or you can't get to the altitude you would like where you will get that great, fast cruise speed, because you cannot legally penetrate the clouds. Thus, the advice to get an IFR is right on. No matter what kind of cruise speed the aircraft has at altitude, you ain't going to get it unless you can get to altitude. You also need to think practically in terms of altitude. Headwinds are an example. My turbocharged 231 goes really fast at FL200, but there are many days when it is not worth going up there because the headwinds are 90 knots and whatever I gained by going up, I lost that speed and then some to the headwinds. Some days I cruise my turbocharged 231 at 4,000 to stay under high headwinds that get worse as you go up. It cruises at around 145-150 there, and that is nm/hr so mph would be a bigger number. Some days I cruise at FL210 and get around 175 knots plus that 90 knot wind which is now a tailwind, I would be crazy not to take advantage of that, so my 175 knot cruise speed is now a ground speed of 265 knots. Bottom line: anything from the F on up will have a cruise speed in your ballpark, in terms of miles per hour. The older models will do a very good job of it also. But whether you can get to that number on a given day is going to depend on alot of things: Are you IFR and can you get to altitude? Do you want to get to altitude if it means bouncing around in the clouds for 2 hours (there is a reason the cloud is there, you will find that out)? Do you want to go higher, above the clouds where it is smooth, and you will probably need to sip oxygen? Can you put up with days were no matter what you do, the headwinds are going to prevent you from getting a groundspeed in the neighborhood of the cruise speed you want. PS the 201 and 231 numbers were in mph, converted from nm/hr. Climb into a 201 or 231 and it is not very likely you will see speeds displayed in mph. 2 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 jlunseth: A M20E is usually faster than an M20F because it is lighter with the same engine. A M20E with M20J (201) updates is very close to as fast as a J. Js have a superior cowling/baffling design which certainly keeps CHTs quite a bit cooler and probably reduces induction drag. My '66 cruises @ 159 kts at 75% and less than gross. (I don't get much chance to see what cruise is @ gross.) Quote
jlunseth Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I certainly have nothing against the older models, I just haven't flown in one and don't know them, I only know numbers I have seen written in articles. And you bring up the "updates" subject, which is obviously another factor in cruise speed. There are alot of mods that can be done particularly to the older aircraft to increase their speed. The 201 cowling and/or windshield applied to an older model is one of them. Looking at aircraft to buy, and if you were looking at an older model, having the cowling and windshield mods in particular would be better/faster. Quote
carusoam Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Ask Mike and Alan... Prepare the popcorn! -a- Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 I certainly have nothing against the older models, I just haven't flown in one and don't know them, I only know numbers I have seen written in articles. And you bring up the "updates" subject, which is obviously another factor in cruise speed. There are alot of mods that can be done particularly to the older aircraft to increase their speed. The 201 cowling and/or windshield applied to an older model is one of them. Looking at aircraft to buy, and if you were looking at an older model, having the cowling and windshield mods in particular would be better/faster. I would not think there are articles in which Fs are said to be faster than Es. Roomier back seat, yeah; more fuel capacity, yeah; higher gross, useful load, yeah; but not faster. The E factory spec is 2575 gross and 52 gals. The F was 2740 and 64 gal. Here's a couple of really old MAPA reports: http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/m20e.html http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20F%20Evaluation/M20F_Evaluation_Report.html Quote
gsxrpilot Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Whatever you do, keep with it. We don't fly for financial reasons, time saving reasons, or safety reasons. We fly because life's too short to stay on the ground. That is the best quote ever. 1 Quote
Bob_Belville Posted January 22, 2015 Report Posted January 22, 2015 Whatever you do, keep with it. We don't fly for financial reasons, time saving reasons, or safety reasons. We fly because life's too short to stay on the ground. That is the best quote ever. +1 Quote
N252WD Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I had about 200 hours before buying a 252 non-rocket. I see them in the price range of 120K-200+K. Great planes if you need a turbo. I fly mine from Houston to Denver (750 miles) with 25kts head wind take me about 4.5-5 hours, Denver to Houston, about 3-3.5hours. Depending on alt. 080-150, fuel burn 9.5-12.5 never going over 75% except climbs. Normal airspeed range 150kts-195kts. Ground speed been 135kts-230kts. Just depends on wind and alt. Hope this helps w/ the M20K 252. Quote
kevinw Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 I transitioned into a J at 400 hours and an IR. It was a perfect step up from an Archer. I'm no expert but jumping from a trainer to an Ovation with low hours is a huge jump and insurance will be astronomical., and for good reason; a huge amount of risk. That "risk" should tell you something. I bought my J and spent over $40K on a factory remanned engine, prop overhaul and annual. Depending on your budget stick with a J or similar model and you won't regret it. All of us want something newer and faster but be smart about it and buy a plane that you'll be comfortable and safe in. Just my opinion. Good luck to you. 1 Quote
Rik Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Posted January 23, 2015 Well I certainly cannot afford an Ovation at this point in time. A J seems like a good starting point but I need to learn a lot more about these planes before I purchase one. Time for a new thread to address those questions. Reading the article that "ChrisK" mentioned really makes a "K" look appealing but really makes a 252 sound even better but that's shopping at a store I should not be stepping into. As mentioned above by N252ND I am amazed at the fuel burn being so low. Makes the 252 sound even more attractive, just wish they were 50K less $ Kevin, you mention a $40K engine rebuild when others made it sound like it would be a lot less. Others wishful thinking or legitimate reason? I really think aircraft engines, for what they are, are far over priced and they seem to be the elephant in the room as to why flying is so expensive. The question becomes do I need a turbo in order to get over the mountains when flying into the IE Basin. KCCB would be ideal destination. Quote
carusoam Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 Rik, There are many elephants in the room. You have found a couple. Keep looking. Gain experience. Only you can tell what is right for your situation. Traveling at 200mph is not likely the place you want buy from the lowest cost supplier... The machine is one cost. The maintenance and care another. Most important is the training and the ability to adhere to the training. Don't rush... -a- Quote
Z W Posted January 23, 2015 Report Posted January 23, 2015 You've walked into several of the "great debates" of general aviation here. Turbo vs. non-turbo is a topic that has had many threads devoted to it here. I'm in the turbo camp. Once you've flown one, it's hard to go back to a plane that loses power as it goes up. It's not for speed, but for comfort, high altitude takeoffs, and topping weather. You won't probably find a good 252 in your price range, but a nice 231 would be available. Also possibly a 262, which is a 231 with an STC for the 252 engine, which trade for less than a factory 252. Buy your last plane first vs. buy a step-up plane is also another hotly contested topic. Most agree with proper discipline and training, you can step into a turbocharged cross-country machine with a fresh PPL, as long as you continue your instrument training. Others suggest spending a couple hundred hours putzing around VFR in a trainer first. There are transaction costs associated with changing planes (sales tax, insurance requirements for dual instruction, upgrades, etc). There probably is no right or wrong answer, but everyone will tell you to be careful going the fast upgrade route, and not to push yourself while you learn. What it costs to overhaul an engine is another topic, with debate about what should be included in an "overhaul". A local mechanic might "overhaul" your lower case for $15-20k and leave all of the accessories intact (mags, cylinders, turbochargers, tubing, etc) even on a 252. If you want shiny new everything from the factory out of a crate, removed and reinstalled by a brand name shop, the cost is more like $50-60k. Obviously different engines are different costs. $7500ish of that is a new turbo and wastegate. Shopping around you might get them cheaper. As you are shopping, look at what was done at the last "overhaul" to see what you are buying. Also consider the calendar time since overhaul. Many consider a 10-year old engine to be due for overhaul, especially if it's only got 500 hours on it. Just don't ask whether you should run your engine LOP or ROP, whether you should get a twin because they're safer, whether a Mooney should be landed with partial flaps, or whether your wife should be able to tell you you need to buy the plane with the parachute. You'll get too much information all at once, none of which will make any sense. Quote
Rik Posted January 23, 2015 Author Report Posted January 23, 2015 Zane, thanks for the honesty. It's refreshing to read what one would do rather than what one would suggest others to do. What I've found in life is that everything is relative. Compared to the wife, this plane stuff is CHEAP... Anyone want to trade a wife for a plane? Quote
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