New member and not a Mooney owner.....YET.....Hope to be soon - comments please

[Conrad]

Also, meet me. I am in pretty much the same boat as you, but I've been here a while and am getting out as of right now! I'm I'm just over in SF and have agonized over a lot of the same issues you've mentioned. I have also spoken to Mr. Pinata about his plane, and although I didn't actually get as far as going to see it it should be a great deal for the right person if it all checks out. He was forthcoming with information and helpful and responsive, and I only ceased pursuing it because I decided that I could find a bird with an equipment list better suited to my mission while not breaking the bank. Best of luck with the sale pinata, and best of luck with the puchase Shermv8tor! Feel free to PM me, I suspect I'll have lots of time to talk and speculate over the holidays.

[Conrad]

As for the topic of expense, I also think that the advice of 'consider stretching your budget for the next model up' is objectively bad advice. You may want to stretch your budget, but you would want to stretch it to get one of the best instances of a model you can definitely afford from somebody that knows they have a beautiful plane, not a needy plane from someone who knows they need to offer a serious discount to sell. Your plane won't spend so much time in the hangar, you will have some cash to deal with upgrades (some will be necessary on almost any plane you can afford in order to be ADS-B 2020 compliant), and finally, if/when you do have the resources to upgrade you will be able to turn around and sell without taking a big loss on all the work you had to do. Not to mention you'll be able to afford to fly it!

[BigTex]

This may be harsh but if you have to really struggle to come up with the funds to purchase a plane (any plane) you're setting yourself up for failure.  Look into other options. 

 

What happens is that you end up spending all you have saved to purchase the plane.  Then something breaks and you don't have the funds to fix it... so you defer the maintenance and figure you'll get it fixed at the next annual.  Then something else breaks... maybe comm 2.  You defer that.  Next thing you know you have a squawk list a mile long going into your first annual.  In the annual the IA finds some expensive airworthy issues that need to be addressed making your annual north of $5000 (which you only budgeted half that).  So you stop the annual until you can save up some money.  Three years later the plane is still setting... then you decide to put it on the market and you're shocked that you can't get but half what you spent for it....

 

The moral to this story is make sure you have the disposable funds to pay for some major repairs without taking food off the table.  There's many ways to exercise your flight privileges... Owning an aircraft is only one of many.  Check into partnerships, flying clubs and of course renting. 

[Htwjr]

I got my ppl in May 2013 and '67 C in June. For me the C was the perfect combination of speed and efficiency. Not just operating efficiency but relatively cheap to purchase and maintain. I am 6'2" and have made several long trips with 3 adults (total) and lots of baggage with no problems at all. After flying for a year and a half and making several upgrades I am still well below your budget and mine. I still have a kid in college too. If you are only occasionally going to have four on board I would consider a C.

[Hector]

Welcome aboard. By now you have probably figured out that buying an airplane on a budget is all about compromises. For your mission the ideal Mooney (within reach of your budget) is probably an F model but finding one in the 40's will be tough unless you are willing to put a lot of work into it and accept a lot of shortcomings. In your search no doubt you will see some F's that are perfect for you. If you can stretch your budget without breaking the bank then go for it, but if you have to overreach then be careful. You don't want to end up as BigTex described. a C/E are not ideal for routinely carrying 4 people. It's certainly capable, I had 4 people and a small dog in my 67 C last weekend, but unless the folks in the back are small they will not be comfortable on a long trip. In the other hand, your family appears to be on the small side, AND you should be able to pick up a nice C/E that is IFR certified, with a basic IFR GPS, and a basic working A/P in the 40's. See if you can get a ride in a C/E from someone, and better yet, have your wife or kids come along and sit in the back. It may be that you have to break up that long trip into two days, but if you can make it work, you can end up with reasonably priced, reasonably equipped Mooney that is easy to maintain.

[ShermAv8tor]

Thanks again everyone, again all great points to consider. No I will not routinely be flying 4 people on LONG trips, but would like the capability if the mission arises. Yes smaller peeps get the back seat. I am pretty sure the the C/E/or even an F (if you can find one) will fit my mission. getting a ride is going to be tricky, and not sure how to accomplish this one, I think one of the memebers on this post near me has offered that option and i really need to take them up on that. I will figure it out. Based on everything I have read and my personal likes/dislikes, I really think the mooney will be a great airplane for me. fast, efficient, sexy, easy to maintain (my personal A&P opinion) My family and I have taken many trips in a car/suv that were sometimes up to 20 hrs, but would routinely do 12-14 hrs drive in a day, so not new to making the best of small areas for long trips (Nissan Murano) Yes the C would probaly be the best cost/efficent model, however right now I really seem to be hung up on getting an E model.

Long distance, faster is better, so is the 10 kts really worth it? To me yeas, but lets open that question up to the ranks of the C & E owners. I know speed mods can get me up to the 150 kts mark on the C, but the fuel injection seems to be a bigger attraction for me (personal pref)

Also lets talk paint - have you had your bird painted, and if so what was the cost? I would think you could get a good paint job for 6-8K (outside of Cali) but maybe I'm way off. Lemme know if you have recommendations on shops or people to call - I dod a search on here and nothing came up that was helpful

Hope everyone had a great Christmas.....off to Top Golf in the Colony, TX

[Hank]

Sherm--from what I've seen & heard, your paint estimate should be doubled.

Yes, E's are a little faster (same airframe, 20 more hp). But read the number of threads on this board and MAPA about how to do a hot start of a fuel injected Mooney. My C is simple, mixture rich, throttle to approx 1000 RPM spot, turn the key.

A huge part of the price will be what's in the panel. I'd rather have an equipped C than a stripped E.

As always, YMMV, etc. have a great shopping experience!

P.S.--I followed an F the full north-south length of Ohio, and only lost sight of him towards the end. Not sure if he beat me by 10 minutes.

[TWinter]

Paint on a E will run you 10-12K minimum. Of course you would want a "real" aircraft paint shop to do the work. The E is a great two person and luggage, even with a pet it is possible and very comfortable. You can do four people in it with short legs on shorter legs.  We have no children and occasionally my elderly parents fly with us maybe half a dozen times a year. The E is a great fit for us. As they say.."All depends on the mission".

[gsxrpilot]

I was there Sherm, 

 

I had my heart set on an E.  After all as the 200hp with the least airframe to haul around, it's the hot rod of the class.  But I can't tell you how happy I am to have a VERY well equipped C instead.

[BigTex]

I'm fine arriving a few minutes after the E would land for a given leg... If you need to be there at a given time, leave 10 minutes earlier.  For me, it's not a big deal.  Not sure if you plan on keeping your plane a long time but if you need to perform an overhaul, you'll find that the O-360 is several thousand cheaper than the IO-360.  I personally think it's a more bulletproof engine.  Also, if you go with the manual gear, maintenance is super simple.

[Bob_Belville]

What do you know, C owners like Cs.   

[carusoam]

until retirement...

C when you are young and short on dough.

IO550 when things are going your way a decade later.

E for the retirement years... gonna get me one with an all electric panel!

they are all good!

start off easy with ownership. modify, upgrade and move up if possible.?

going my way?

-a-

[BigTex]

What do you know, C owners like Cs.   

 

Go figure... In all honestly, my plane picked me if that makes any sense.  I could of just as easily ended up with and E/F/J if the right one came along.

[ShermAv8tor]

It is great coming back to this forum for advice!! You all have alot of experience and great recommendations and I really appreciate your time to jot down your replies…..I will open my eyes again, and take the blinders off….Your right well equipped is where I should be at. Sometime I catch myself almost wanting to force it, instaed of waiting for the airplane to "pick me" as a couple of members have stated. 

 

Also I have read that the pre 65 models the ailerons are different and thus require more effort since they have a higher breakout force. Impressions were to stay away if possible…..I think I read that on MAPA…….do any of you belong to MAPA as well and is it worth joining prior to buying? 

[GeorgePerry]

Welcome Sherman.  As you can see from my thumb we share a similar background.  If you have questions shoot me a PM anytime.

[DonMuncy]

Yes, many of us here are MAPA members as well. In my opinion, MAPA is worth the money to join. They have a forum restricted to members, which is a valuable resource. They host a convention, in the spring (May this year), and most often held at Kerrville TX. The publish the MAPA Log, a monthly magazine with some worthwhile stuff. I don't remember the cost off the top of my head, but close to $50 annually.

[Conrad]

Definitely join MAPA. It might get you an insurance discount some places (??), the MAPA logs have mechanical suggestions, a classifieds section, but most importantly accident reports. While Mooneys seem to have an excellent safety record, there's nothing quite so humbling as the lessons to learn there from those of us who didn't make it.

 

On a lighter note, the 64 C and E models had the ailerons with rounded bottoms requiring the higher control forces. Positive Control (PC) was introduced as standard in 65 and required the modern flat-bottom aileron design. If it has PC, it has modern ailerons. Other quirks of the pre-65s were that they had only 48 gallons usable fuel (unless the fuel tank caps were replaced by an O&N bladder installation), have rounded rear windows, and the step is driven by a crank at the pilot's left knee instead of by vacuum pressure. They might not have a hat rack. For the fuel, if you're leaving 10 gallons of fuel in reserve, for trips you'd have 38 gallons as opposed to 42, or a 9% difference in range. On the bright side they sell at a light discount.

 

Kelly McMullen is a vocal participant on the MAPA email threads, and I believe he has an M20E which he has stated he might put on the market within the year. Could be worth an email? There's a nice looking E with an SWTA 201 windshield on Barnstormers as well. That mod isn't made anymore, and is preferable to the LASAR version of the 201 windshield as it has better exterior access to avionics. If you go back far enough in the Mooney classifieds there you'll find one for a rather attractive E with a low time engine but you can't have it is going to be mine.

[Conrad]

@gsrxpilot I'm glad you're loving N6XM because I watched that listing on controller for a long time wishing it wasn't out of my price range.

[schule]

Welcome Sherman.

Just a reminder that this $0.02 is worth exactly the price paid.........I have flown around 50 hours in a C, owned an F for a couple years, and currently have a K.

The least expensive part of an airplane is the purchase price. An estimate of 3x cost of fuel for a 100/hr year (***operating cost only) has proven about average across all three models. The F and C are almost identical in operating costs. The K adds 20%. Operations run 5x the loan $$$. My mission is mostly 400NM+ with 2 pax plus bags/dog.

I like to fly high to have options, and it is easier to navigate when you can see the curvature of the earth. The C would give good enough performance to about 8k' and above that the ROC really dropped off. The cruise speed averaged 135kts/8gph. The F would give good enough performance till around 13k' and really dropped off when higher. I typically cruised in the F at 11.5-12.5k' getting 145kts/8.5gph.

The F's added length and weight made it much more stable in rough air, and 50% of the time I could get above any rough air. We flew the F from FL to AK and many places in between. We were able to take the northern Rockies route from Seattle to Chyenne in the summer, but it was just able with DA around 16k' on the 13k' MEAs. O2 is really not needed in an F due to limited performance at O2 required altitudes. O2 is nice even if lower when you have it.

Good avionics and an AP make long XC flights nice, but if you are new to the process there is much skill one can learn without it. An AP can kill good stick and rudder skills.

Other than a more stable flight experience the F added a lot of rear set leg room when taking friends on $100 hamburger runs, or an extra 1.5 hours of fuel during longer trips. Most importantly is added baggage space for those shopping trips.

I would highly recommend an F or J even at $80k. Might be a good idea to setup a split with another buddy looking for similar performance. This could allow for more AMU on flying vice owning costs.

Good luck Devil Dawg.

[Conrad]

What is your loan term? Kind of important if you're using loan payments as a reference for mx costs...

[ShermAv8tor]

Definitely join MAPA. It might get you an insurance discount some places (??), the MAPA logs have mechanical suggestions, a classifieds section, but most importantly accident reports. While Mooneys seem to have an excellent safety record, there's nothing quite so humbling as the lessons to learn there from those of us who didn't make it.

 

On a lighter note, the 64 C and E models had the ailerons with rounded bottoms requiring the higher control forces. Positive Control (PC) was introduced as standard in 65 and required the modern flat-bottom aileron design. If it has PC, it has modern ailerons. Other quirks of the pre-65s were that they had only 48 gallons usable fuel (unless the fuel tank caps were replaced by an O&N bladder installation), have rounded rear windows, and the step is driven by a crank at the pilot's left knee instead of by vacuum pressure. They might not have a hat rack. For the fuel, if you're leaving 10 gallons of fuel in reserve, for trips you'd have 38 gallons as opposed to 42, or a 9% difference in range. On the bright side they sell at a light discount.

 

Kelly McMullen is a vocal participant on the MAPA email threads, and I believe he has an M20E which he has stated he might put on the market within the year. Could be worth an email? There's a nice looking E with an SWTA 201 windshield on Barnstormers as well. That mod isn't made anymore, and is preferable to the LASAR version of the 201 windshield as it has better exterior access to avionics. If you go back far enough in the Mooney classifieds there you'll find one for a rather attractive E with a low time engine but you can't have it is going to be mine.

Hi Rad, Did you get the E out of Bentonville? That one is a smoking deal for sure! Congrats on your new acquisition! Where are you based out of?

[ShermAv8tor]

Schule, All great info and thanks for providing it. Yes very familiar with all operating costs, etc. - no worries I know what I'm in for on this. Not a huge fan of partnerships as I'm in one now on a C150, and again....not a big fan....I'll just leave it at that.

Good to know 65 was first year of PC as well. Im gonna stick to the 65 and later versions

[Conrad]

Yep 

 

Closing work is happening now. The plane will be hangared at KOAK; there'll be pictures here once it makes the trip. You'd be welcome of course to come check it out!

[schule]

I am not using the loan to show MX costs, but rather that I traded a fully owned Mooney for one where I set up a partnership with the bank to get more capability. To reinforce a reality of the cost to buy is significantly cheaper than the cost to use an airplane. My other half gets a vote in the comfort of the flight, and I didn't have the extra $50k in cash.

I probably could have made the argument better.

I also like having exclusive access to the airplane, but it costs many AMU to do so.

Hope your plane finds you.

[ShermAv8tor]

Rad thats awesome! Congrats! I am out at KOAK airport often to visit my Gulfstream cusomers, and maybe we can try to meet up one day to put real names with faces. Would love to check it out. Are you over at the T hangars on the north side or the T hangars near hangars 9 & 10? Again, congrats! Did you get a prepurchase done and a title search completed? Maybe we can take this to PM and you can give me any insight about do's and dont's of the purchase.