Refurbished M20J

[aviatoreb]

It seems to me that if you're going to use terms like "core" you cannot only consider the roll cage.

There is a much bigger component to our Mooney airframe than chromoly. It is aluminum and it's indeed structural. Having no endurance limit it fails suddenly, at any stress and number of cycles.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/13806-refurbished-m20j/?p=180923

 

PTK you are quite right and no argument is intended here.  Please remember what I said, "You know, the Mooney airframe is chromoly steel, not aluminum.  Anyway, any metal can fail due to metal fatigue."  I was referring to the English use of the word, frame - the frame of a Mooney is framed on a chromoly tube set like a house is framed.  Of course it was not standard use as "airframe" refers to all of the stuff that we log in our airframe log that is not engine, or propellor log.  I apologize for any confusion I may have caused by the nonstandard non aviation use of the word.  Aluminum - and there is lots of it, plastic, electronics, rubber, all part of the airframe log.  Anyway no insult was intended or argument, and I was just pointing out that there is also a primary part of chromoly steel and anyway I acknowledged that any metal can suffer fatigue failures.

 

​Actually I have suffered aluminum failures and it can be scary.  I have had 4 different cranksets on my bicycle fail over the years, and two different frame sets.  2 cranksets were AL, and two were Ti.  One frame set was AL and one was Chromoly.  The AL failed with no prior indication that something was wrong and failed catastrophically - meaning it just snapped in two one day.  I bet if I had been x-raying it of course I would have seen cracking.  The other materials starting squeaking and creaking and I was able to replace the component before it failed catastrophically possibly causing a crash and injury.

[PTK]

...I apologize for any confusion I may have caused by the nonstandard non aviation use of the word... 

 

Don't let it happen again!!!

 

Apology accepted...this time!!!

[DaV8or]

The technology will improve as technology always does in spite of those who claim it won't.

20 years ago diesel engines weren't really viable in the automotive industry either.

 

The difference is, in the automotive world you can develop an all new engine and expect to sell millions of them in a very short period. Probably in two years or less. The ROI comes fairly quickly. The R&D for an all new airplane engine is the same as the car, maybe even worse due to certification requirements. How long to sell a million airplane engines? This is why some have just taken the approach of doing an auto engine conversion. Even here though, the ROI is looking pretty poor.

 

There just aren't enough of us.

[mooniac15u]

The difference is, in the automotive world you can develop an all new engine and expect to sell millions of them in a very short period. Probably in two years or less. The ROI comes fairly quickly. The R&D for an all new airplane engine is the same as the car, maybe even worse due to certification requirements. How long to sell a million airplane engines? This is why some have just taken the approach of doing an auto engine conversion. Even here though, the ROI is looking pretty poor.

 

There just aren't enough of us.

 

The needed technology advancements don't have to come as a direct result of investment in an aviation solution.  Most of the the best recent advances in general aviation have trickled down to us.  GPS, flat-panel displays, tablets, etc were all developed for other applications and only leveraged in aviation after the technology matured.  In fact the current diesel technology that they are trying to apply didn't come from advances in aviation research.  The breakthroughs that have made diesel even a possibility in general aviation have come from the auto industry.  There is no reason to believe that automakers will stop trying to make diesel engines lighter and better.  Ultimately we might benefit from that.

 

The first couple of generations of diesel cars were failures by most criteria.  New technology including new materials and digital engine controls changed that.  The thing about disruptive technological advances is that few people see them coming.

 

I get why some are pessimistic about general aviation but I like to look at things like WAAS GPS approaches and in-cockpit weather (XM or ADS-B ) and I am amazed at what this technology has brought to an industry where the "ROI looks pretty poor".  Given the choice I will always remain optimistic regarding new technology that we can't even conceive of today.

[jezzie]

Thought I might as well chime in also. I just went through an extensive refurb on my 77 J. I agree with Jose that getting your money back from a refurbished J would be a pipe dream. Realizing what is currently out there in the resale market and looking what I have now I have to learn to be happy with my investment. I know what I have and I don't have to second guess another owners work.

I get great comments from Mooney lovers and other aviation folk about my investment. My justification for this expense is that this is the closest I will get to a new Mooney, and this Mooney was rebuilt for my benefit and for no one else.

 

[NotarPilot]

Thought I might as well chime in also. I just went through an extensive refurb on my 77 J. I agree with Jose that getting your money back from a refurbished J would be a pipe dream. Realizing what is currently out there in the resale market and looking what I have now I have to learn to be happy with my investment. I know what I have and I don't have to second guess another owners work.

I get great comments from Mooney lovers and other aviation folk about my investment. My justification for this expense is that this is the closest I will get to a new Mooney, and this Mooney was rebuilt for my benefit and for no one else.

 

I love that cowl mod!

[Danb]

I do to!

[Bennett]

The cowl looks like the LoPresti cowl, but without the fairing in front of the windshield. Or, at least I don't see it. It does look as though it has the cowl side vents. I really like the LoPresti cowl. And especially the ram air system. Good for more than an inch of MP at 8000'

[82Mike]

I have a 82 J with just over 400 hours on prop and IO360. It has new interior (10 out of 10). Paint is a solid 8. GTN750, Aspen PFD, electric backup HSI, JPI 830, LED landing light, GDL39 hard wired to iPad mini mounted to panel. Remote ADSB in/out to the GTN750, aero comfort leather wraped yokes and glare shield, new skytek starter. I am into it for about $155. Not sure $325 is even possible?

[DaV8or]

The cowl looks like the LoPresti cowl, but without the fairing in front of the windshield. Or, at least I don't see it. It does look as though it has the cowl side vents. I really like the LoPresti cowl. And especially the ram air system. Good for more than an inch of MP at 8000'

 

I do believe the windshield fairing is there. I don't think you can put the Lo Presti cowl on without it. I love that cowl and if I were made o' money, my ol' war wagon would have one too. A properly functioning intake system with a properly functioning ram air, what a concept!!!

[Bennett]

Two days ago I picked up 1.1" MP at 7,500'. Nice boost. Also I like the two doors on the top of the cowl. I often open them up after landing to help the engine cool. There also is a bit of a fairing behind the LoPresti overlapping nose wheel doors. Well thought out mod.

[aaronk25]

The bulky 4 stroke diesel is a dog, Complex and heavy. I applaud Continental for doing something, but with a super charger/turbo combo, paired with direct injection why not buy Delta Hawks technology.

It is so simple. With a direct injection 2 stroke diesel intake and exhaust valves and camshaft are eliminated as the piston port cylinders are simple.

I just want to hit my head against the wall when I see how apparently clear it is and a company pursues creating a albatross.

[carusoam]

Two-strokes are anti-LOP operators...

Intake valves and exhaust valves are open at the same time. Fuel gets lost without being burned.

If fuel is cheap, you get double the hp out of the same engine.

Or half the engine weight for the same HP.

There is a lot of detail to be explored...don't hit your head yet.

Best regards,

-a-

[aaronk25]

I agree, traditional 2 stokes are as described except consider a direct injection 2 stroke diesel or any direct injection 2 stroke for that matter, fuel isn't lost because it is only injected when the piston is traveling back up and is past the piston port exhaust/intake area. When the fuel is introduced to the combustion chamber is key.

I put 3500 miles on a 2 stroke skidoo snowmobile that had direct injection and there was zero exhaust smell and 20mpg (compared to 10mpg).

Without direct injection there smelly filthy animals.

The supercharger/turbo boost actually helps clear excess exhaust out of the cylinder and helps cool by putting more air in.

It's amazing how simple of a engine it is. Just think zero valve terrain components to corrode.

[Awqward]

We used to have a cab-over Kenworth with an 8V71 Detroit Diesel when I was a kid.....VERY LOUD and only 300HP...we used to call it the Bird Scarer.....although it was marketed at the time as a Mack Muncher! And the oilfield is littered with Detroit Diesels.....very very reliable and simple....perfect for aviation

[bonal]

I've always been a huge 2 stroke fan especially marine out boards. The new 4 stroke Mercs and Evanrudes make same power but weigh about 2 to 3 hundred pounds more. They can run for hours at wot cause that's what boats require just like airplanes. They have duel ignition systems for redundancy but you do need to get water to cool them which of course on a boat is easy to do. A 200hp V6 Merc 2 stroke weighs less and is much smaller than an IO360 you would need a gear reduction for the prop. And they like unleaded fuel.

[jetdriven]

And they cost 30 grand for 300 HP, just like a Continental IO-550.

 

but they weigh more and wear out sooner.