Looking for opinions on this 252

[Jetlag]

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/1986/Mooney/M20K+252TSE/1710670.html

 

Thinking about going to look at this one.  It looks like it has been for sale for quite a while.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Need paint 10k

Needs refurbed interior 10k

Needs WAAS navigator 10k

Probably hasn't flown much in the past couple of years so I would be worried about that low time engine. I would like to know when it was overhauled. Your seeing a lot of engines these days with low times that haven't been overhauled in 15+ years. If that's the case budget another 60k

[FlyWalt]

Why does it NEED paint?

 

Why does it NEED a new interior?

 

Why does it NEED a waas GPS?

[Jetlag]

I think it had an overhaul in 1998.  Had an annual ever year but hardly flown the past 10 years.  It does need paint and the interior royalite panels are cracked.  I haven't been watching the 252 market for very long.  I'm wondering if this is priced right?

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Why does it NEED paint? Because paint is protection from corrosion.

Why does it NEED a new interior? Because if I'm spending over 100k for something that doesn't have a toilet in it or that I can't sleep in then it better be in damn fine shape

Why does it NEED a waas GPS? Because if it doesn't have something of the sort you won't be able to fly it in the upcoming years (or use it to its maximum potential) based on adsb regs. Might as well buy a piper cub then

You didn't ask why it might "NEED" a new engine. Average of about 35 hours a year and over 15 years old? Hmmmm... compressions could be perfect and I would still price the plane as having a run out engine. I've already bitten that bullet once and it isn't fun

[chrisk]

Why does it NEED paint?

 

Why does it NEED a new interior?

 

Why does it NEED a waas GPS?

 

Of course it doesn't "NEED" any of these things.   I would expect anyone who buys this plane will make some of these upgrades in the next few years.  I'd also expect fuel tank work, new gear biscuits, and possibly a prop re-seal.

[Z W]

These are all considerations for every plane on the market.  Valid points, but I hope there isn't so much negativity in my thread if I ever go to list my plane.  GA is having a hard enough time without us stomping on each other's listings and scaring away potential buyers.

 

The price point on this plane, in my opinion, is not outside the range I've seen others listed, and I follow the 252 market casually.  Of course, the list price is really nothing but the beginning point for a conversation, if you're serious.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

Plane has been on the market for 2 years now? That should tell you something about what it "NEEDS"

[Jetlag]

I would want new paint, interior, and a GPS.  Also I like the idea of a gross weight increase.  

[1964-M20E]

The listing price is just a starting point as stated earlier.  $124k for a nice plane that does not have a panel mounted GPS I feel is a little high.  Just a casual glance it appears to me that the previous owner did not upgrade the avionics in this plane since it left the factory.  I would automatically deduct $20k for avionics upgrades at least to a new panel mounted GPS and XPNDER for ADSB requirements.  Someone said the engine was overhauled in 1998 that would be about 28 hours per year which is not sitting as far as I’m concerned.  Hours and calendar time are not real telling.  I could fly the plane 160 hours in 1 month  and it may sit for the other 11 months or I may fly 12 hours in a year with 3 20 minute flights every month.  Which is better which is worse??

 

If you are close enough to the plane go over there and look at yourself go up with the owner and fly it see how it sounds, feel and flies.  Then get you an independent mechanic who has not worked on the plane preferably someone who knows Mooneys and have him check it out.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

28 hours a year is not sitting? Really?

Hours flown + calendar time not real telling? Really?

If I bought it at close to that price first place I would fly that plane is to Vegas in hopes of putting it all on red and doubling my money in order to pay for the overhaul on that "low time" engine.

caveat emptor

[ArtVandelay]

While this might not be true I believe those that haven't updated avionics probably have been not maintaining the plane to a high level

[Marauder]

I think it had an overhaul in 1998. Had an annual ever year but hardly flown the past 10 years. It does need paint and the interior royalite panels are cracked. I haven't been watching the 252 market for very long. I'm wondering if this is priced right?

Looks like the same owner since 1998. Probably did the engine when he got it, flew it a bit and then steadily less. If I just got a plane & put an engine on it, I would have flown it a lot for a couple of years and then less over time if I lost interest or had financial or medical issues.

Why don't you reach out to the broker and ask to speak with John Likin the owner to get the history from him?

Based on the market, I agree it is priced high.

[PMcClure]

While this might not be true I believe those that haven't updated avionics probably have been not maintaining the plane to a high level

Sorry but I don't agree with this. Paint, interior and overall condition tells you a lot about how things are maintained and how well the plane is cared for. But not adding a WAAS receiver or new glass panel doesn't mean the plane was not maintained. There is value in the old systems, properly working.

[gjkirsch]

Assuming it has been on the market for a long time, did it have a previous prepurchase inspection that caused a prior buyer to walk away?  Assuming a good prebuy inspection and a little room in the price to allow a panel mounted waas gps, I think it looks very serviceable.  I still think the 252 is one of the best models Mooney ever made. 

[chrisk]

These are all considerations for every plane on the market.  Valid points, but I hope there isn't so much negativity in my thread if I ever go to list my plane.  GA is having a hard enough time without us stomping on each other's listings and scaring away potential buyers.

 

The price point on this plane, in my opinion, is not outside the range I've seen others listed, and I follow the 252 market casually.  Of course, the list price is really nothing but the beginning point for a conversation, if you're serious.

 

I pretty much agree.  One thing that would hold me back is a useful load of 841 lbs.   With full fuel, it leaves 391lbs for passengers and luggage, it's maybe 2 people and 50 lbs of stuff ( luggage, clothing, POH, IFR approach plates and other assorted junk).  For price, it seems to be in the ball park, but getting it to be ADS-B compliant (and capable of LPV approaches) is going to be expensive ($20K+).  For other planes that have a Garmin WAAS gps (430, 530, 650, 750) and a GTX330 transponder, the cost upgrade will be far lower ( I think it is just a software upgrade).  This may be a consideration, assuming you fly IFR and at turbo altitudes. 

[FBCK]

A friend of mine was selling his three year old Toyota 4 Runner years ago and the purchaser was who and hawing about the timing belt that would soon need replacing. My buddy told the potentcial purchaser, yes that is true and in about a week, your going to have to fill the tank with gas as well and I'm not going to do that either.

 

I'm having trouble with what the expectations are when you purchasing a used airplane.  If there is a plane with a $100,000 of recent upgrades and its selling for $100,000, sigh me up.

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

I'd rather buy a timing belt for a 4 runner than garmin navigator for a Mooney. Lets not compare apples to oranges. The problem is when your looking at a plane built in the mid 80's like a 252 for 100k+ with all original equipment and you put pen to paper and crunch the numbers to determine how much it's really going to cost you to bring the plane into the 21st century from the perspective of paint, interior, avionics and maintenance you'll find you're now into ovation territory and could buy a plane 15 years newer that's probably not going to be as maintence hungry as the older bird and will return more of your original investment when you go to sell. Think about it. It's simple math. Why would I buy a 86 252 for 125k - 175k that's all original (yes there out there at that price) when I could buy an Ovation for 150k - 199k?

[pirate]

I'd check it out if I were in the market. It may be nice or it may not.

They sure are great airplanes when in good shape.

Good luck with your search. Mooneys are a blast to fly.

[Yetti]

My understanding is you could be 2020 ADSB compliant for $5K   King 74a and a Freeflight.  $300 for an ipad and you have moving map.

[chrisk]

My understanding is you could be 2020 ADSB compliant for $5K   King 74a and a Freeflight.  $300 for an ipad and you have moving map.

The transponder is $2600.Freeflight is $2900.  It's probably another $1500+ to install it.  So about $7000 gets you ADSB out compliant.   But if you want to fly GPS approaches, you will need more than an Ipad.  My local airport used to have a NDB approach, but it was decommissioned.  It has 4 approaches, all GPS.  If I were upgrading, I would skip the Freeflight source and go for a WAAS based nav. (GTN-650). 

[chrisk]

I'd rather buy a timing belt for a 4 runner than garmin navigator for a Mooney. Lets not compare apples to oranges. The problem is when your looking at a plane built in the mid 80's like a 252 for 100k+ with all original equipment and you put pen to paper and crunch the numbers to determine how much it's really going to cost you to bring the plane into the 21st century from the perspective of paint, interior, avionics and maintenance you'll find you're now into ovation territory and could buy a plane 15 years newer that's probably not going to be as maintence hungry as the older bird and will return more of your original investment when you go to sell. Think about it. It's simple math. Why would I buy a 86 252 for 125k - 175k that's all original (yes there out there at that price) when I could buy an Ovation for 150k - 199k?

+1

[FAST FLIGHT OPTIONS LLC]

The transponder is $2600.Freeflight is $2900.  It's probably another $1500+ to install it.  So about $7000 gets you ADSB out compliant.   But if you want to fly GPS approaches, you will need more than an Ipad.  My local airport used to have a NDB approach, but it was decommissioned.  It has 4 approaches, all GPS.  If I were upgrading, I would skip the Freeflight source and go for a WAAS based nav. (GTN-650). 

+1 agreed! I actually consider this one to be a safety issue and I would argue WAAS = OPTIONS and OPTIONS = SAFETY

[fantom]

+2 Nick, ️

[chrisk]

For reference, I would compare the plane you are looking at to http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-231/1979-MOONEY-M20K-231/1326523.htm  It's not quite an apples to apples comparison, since it is a 231.   However, note that it a similar asking price, has TKS, recent paint and interior (10 years old), an Aspen PFD,  a WAAS GPS,  a fuel tank reseal 4 years ago, and an overhaul 3 years ago.    --My point is that there are nice planes out there.  They cost a little more up front, but you get a lot of value too.