metal in the oil filter

[M016576]

Has anyone here ever had this happen to them?  If so, what was the outcome (both in terms of cost and time)?  The oil is currently out for analysis, but no metal was found in the sump or on the screen, just in the filter.  My motor has 220hrs SMOH... I guess when it rains, it pours, eh?  Luckily she's at a big shop right now, so if it's "really bad" I won't need a "field repair."

Maybe I should start pricing Lycoming Echelons..... ugh..... was hoping I wouldn't see the day...

-Job

[KSMooniac]

Don't price the Echelon!!!!  It will make you cry.

First step is to identify if it is aluminum or steel.  You should also send the filter and contents to Blackstone for analysis, and they can very likely tell you the source.  Then figure out how to proceed...

[Ned Gravel]

Job:

I had the same fears when I first bought too.  The degree of problem depends on how much you are actually finding in the filter.  A little dust (enough to smudge the tip of your finger) is one thing.  On older engines it is sometimes considered normal. 

If what you are seeing are actual pieces, then there is probably something shedding metal from within. 

Hope it is going to be OK for you (and not cost you too much either).

 

[mjc]

Identifying the type of metal and getting an oil analysis are good first steps. Once you have more information, you can figure out where the metal is coming from and whether, given the amount, it is a serious problem. There are a number of good websites that can help you determine the origin of the metal; Sac Sky Ranch is one:

http://www.sacskyranch.com/cancut2.htm

 

[Jeff_S]

I don't want to be alarmist, but in Jerry Manthey's class last week he said that if metal shows up in the filter of a Lyc engine, it has about 20 hours before it will fail. But as noted above, hopefully what you found will not be as dramatic.  Good luck!

[M016576]

thanks for the advice all, I'm hoping it's something simple and a one time affair, but the more I read about the possibilities the more I'm bracing myself for the worst.  I honestly don't know how much metal they pulled out of the oil filter, but from the sounds of it, it was some slivers.

After reading the sky ranch website (thanks michael) I'm wondering exactly what part might be shedding the metal and just how significant it is.  Sounds like the best case scenerio is still going to be pretty costly... and the worst case could easily net me a new motor (ugh).  The shop said that they are going to wait for the oil analysis to come back prior to making any judgements, but I'm interested to hear what they have to say.  The A&P I spoke to said absolute best case scenario would result in a return to service, but a check of the filter/oil after 10-15 hours to make sure it was a one time affair....  Not sure I like that form of trouble shooting! 

I suppose looking at it in a positive light, though, is that they found the metal in the filter when I brought it in for an oil change + a few gripes to be looked at.... instead of metal shavings found in the filter by the mishap inspection team...

                               -Job

[140pilot]

On my Cessna 140 we found metal shavings in the filter on oil change once. Turns out the previous AP on annual had cross threaded the filter backed it off and chased the threads and reinstalled it. All of the metal was from the filter itself. We changed the oil and filter then ran the engine 5 hours. Changed the oil again went another 10 hours then pulled the filter and it was clean.

[M016576]

Was it readily apparent that the filter had been the culprit when it was screwed off?  If so, did you do an oil analysis to be sure?  Thanks!  Man... my pocketbook would REALLY appriciate it if that was the case here!!!!

-Job

[Royski]

I found metal in two successive oil changes soon after buying my plane.  The engine was getting up in time, so I put in a remanufactured engine which has been working great for 270 hours. 

[conom06d]

I thought some metal traces were more common in engines fresh out of overhaul vs older motors since they are still being broken in and the metal is that process happening. Now i do not know if they consider 225 hours still being broken in or not but it seems low time to me (but i have no idea what the break in time is). I have had my oil analyzed the each time I do an oil change since i have 2100hours (approx) on my motor just to track if there are more tracings than normal and when I asked the analysis company, and multiple mechanics, if i should be concerned about flying a high time motor like this....they all said no so long as I track the tracings of metal. They say though that mine is broken in well and there are very little readings of metal on the analysis at all, but my thought process is that it is an old and broken in motor while a new one will show more wear on the report. Is this accurate...?

 

*knock on wood*

[Jsavage3]

Needing some advice...

I bought the airplane 6 mos ago knowing that my mechanic found a very small amount of metal (steel) in the oil filter during the pre-buy. 

After the purchase, we changed the oil/filter (did not clean the oil sump screen) and did another compression check.  Oil analysis came back normal with everything in the green.  Compressions were all around 70 and slightly better than what we saw during the pre-buy.  I flew it 10 hours and then we cut the filter.  More metal (steel) -- very fine pieces that felt gritty between my fingers.  He recommended I fly it another 10 hrs and then cut the filter again.

I flew it 20 hrs and we cut the filter.  Smaller quantity of metal, but there is still that gritty steel -- smaller than sand granules.  We found one piece of steel that we decided was more like a sliver.

The engine is a 25 yrs old engine with 1500 hrs on it.  Previous owner flew it about 60 hrs over a 2.5 year period.  His previous owner flew it very little over a 8 yrs period.

I'm hoping to change the oil right away, clean the oil sump screen, do an oil analysis that includes sending them the oil filter, do another compression check and borescope the cylinders...and then see where we are.

Is it possible for an engine to make a little metal for awhile and then stop?

Any advice you can offer would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Cruiser]

Sure, once it grinds up what ever is causing the problem, the metal in the filter will go away.

Seriously, you need to know what is happening inside the engine. In the meantime, if you continue to fly this engine, how are your engine out emergency procedures?

[231Pilot]

You probably should be pricing engines.  Major overhaul, factory reman, or 0 time. if you have metal showing up in your oil filter at 1500 hours, how much are you willing to risk your most precious cargo?  Is it worth the lives or well being of your passengers?  Is it worth your life or well being?  It will definitely up the resale of your aircraft, and it will definitely up your safety factor.  I know it is expensive (everything about owning an airplane is expensive), but you are going to have to bite that bullet sooner or later.  I would do it before there is cause for regret.

[Jeff_S]

Once a Lycoming starts making metal, unless it stops completely at the next 10-hour oil change, things aren't looking good. Based on the info you've provided it sounds like that engine is very old and hasn't been flown alot or well cared-for. So unfortunately I agree with Cruiser and Lew...time to start looking at engines and if it were me I'd be very cautious about flying. Don't mean to instill undue alarm so take this as just my opinion.

[Jsavage3]

My primary question comes down to how much is too much?  I find it hard to believe that ANY metal in the filter is grounding.  How long did we fly airplanes with nothing but a screen & no filter?  Why does oil turn black?  Over the life of the engine, the wearables exit via the oil, right?  If there were ANY of indicators pointing to problems, then there'd be no question.

To quell any fears out there, I'm not into risk taking when it comes to my family or my pink butt, but we all have to weigh those risks and make hopefully intelligent decisions that will help mitigate those dangers.  My single-drive, dual mag or night IMC over the mountains comes to mind...

Bottomline, and please sing out if you don't agree, I think the source of the metal needs to be identified.  It'd be a shame to split the case and find that the problem was coming from a jug.

Gents & Ladies, I am not trying be argumentative here, it's just that I keep hearing conflicting opinions and this is obviously a very important topic.  It's sort of like getting bad news from a Doc; what do we do, we go get a 2nd opinion.  Opinions are like noses, everyone has one.  So far, it appears that everyone here is in agreement.  Also, I appreciate you taking the time to share your opinions.

 

[Steve Dawson]

There must be some analysis information available to be able to specify which metal came from where and why. If you had dark metal shavings, I'm guessing tappet or cam, chromium cam, ect, but what would it be if on oil analysis all the metals showed below average but the alluminum was at the top of the scale? - Cam or crank/rod bearings or pistons?

Steve

[flight2000]

Instead of weeding through all of our opinions, I would just give a place like Western Skyways or Zephyr Engines a call and ask them.  Engine professionals that work on these things for a living would be a better solution than an owner/pilot forum IMHO.  I'd give two shops a call at a minimum. These guys are at the top of my list for an overhaul when mine is due.  YMMV....

An oil analysis by Blackstone Labs should be able to pinpoint the source.  They've seen just about everything come through their labs at one point or another.

http://www.westernskyways.com/

http://www.zephyrengines.com/

 

[N601RX]

If it is a cam or lifter the engine will just slowly loose power over time, but will continue to run.  If it is the crank or bearing the failure will be sudden and severe if you continue to fly it.  It can also make the motor either unoverhaulable or greatly increase the cost of an overhaul.

[DaV8or]

It's a Lycoming IO 360 that hasn't flown a lot. Probably cam related. If you're wondering about your cylinders, do a bore scope inspection. Your good compressions suggest they are OK, but a bore scope look is cheap and easy. Next step might be to pull a jug and look at the cam. You have a real problem if there is visable steel in the filter. You shouldn't be able to see or feel the normal amounts of steel. If it's not the cylinders, one way or the other, the motor should come apart. My understanding is, what causes oil to turn black is not steel particulates, but soot from blow by in the cylinders.

[kortopates]

Very good advice to call one of the big engine rebuilders, yet I've seen there are some knowledgable A&P and IAs here too and since you asked about how much is too much etc you may also want to learn the official Lycoming position and their recommendations based on a quantitative analysis of particle size and number of particles from the oil filter as well as spectrographic oil analysis . Then see Lycoming Service Instruction No 1492D. Although it was written in response to Piston Pin Wear, its all all about guidance for metal in the oil. You can get it and good education on the topic here: http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-instructions/pdfs/SI1492D.PDF 

Would agree you definetly want to find the source and the Cam and lifter spalling is a very common source of metal for a Lycoming engine that sat for periods of time. So boroscoping the cylinders (first easiest thing to do) and a a cam inspection might be indicated.

Good luck!

[sleepingsquirrel]

One thing to keep in mind is that everything you see in an oil filter is NOT circulating through the system! It has been stopped by the filter and the reason is to keep it from becoming part of the abrasive mix of carbon & other combustion products which are circulating all the time between oil  and filter changes. Where it is coming from is a matter which  can be detemined by obsevation and/or spectrum analysis.  The important thing is ,does it increase in volume or diminish between oil changes? One could just change the filter more frequently to keep an eye on the material for more or less.Is the engine giving other symptoms? I've no real experience but have changed a lot of oil in engines which just keep on running and running . Wear is normal and the filter is helpful keeping the wear particles from causing abnormal  wear. Cutting open the filter will most always show something and like an analysis the trending could be the most important thing to watch. YMMV but I'm not going to look for a new engine everytime an A&P shows me something in the oil fliter. I'm going to take the holistic approach and weigh all the indicators.

"Your engine may produce a small amount of metal which will be seen in the filter element and this can be classed as normal. There is no defined level which is normal for an engine - each engine is different - but there will be a quantity which is usual for your engine."

http://www.shell.com/home/content/aviation/aeroshell/technical_talk/techart16_30071550.html

This is my opinion and comfort level, not applicable in every case.

[Jsavage3]

Based on all the info here, my own research elsewhere and knowing my engine is spitting steel sand, I've decided on a teardown.  It's expensive, but one cannot put a price on the value of your loved ones.  If I continued trying to evaluate the details by continuing to operate the airplane, I believe I'd be putting my family and myself at considerable risk.  The cost of the repair is much more palatable.

 

[sleepingsquirrel]

Roger! What better judgement could a pilot make than his own. Only he knows all the circumstances /details for his particular situation. Sometimes our gut knows best, and there is some science to support that! I fly with my Grand daughter in the C150 because my confidence is highest there. Kids can sense these things in us as well, that is until we educate them. Only I will know when my ability in the Mooney would let me be comfortable with her there.

So in the strongest possible way I agree with you!

[DaV8or]

Quote: Jsavage3

Based on all the info here, my own research elsewhere and knowing my engine is spitting steel sand, I've decided on a teardown.  It's expensive, but one cannot put a price on the value of your loved ones.  If I continued trying to evaluate the details by continuing to operate the airplane, I believe I'd be putting my family and myself at considerable risk.  The cost of the repair is much more palatable.

[Shadrach]

Quote: Jsavage3

Based on all the info here, my own research elsewhere and knowing my engine is spitting steel sand, I've decided on a teardown.  It's expensive, but one cannot put a price on the value of your loved ones.  If I continued trying to evaluate the details by continuing to operate the airplane, I believe I'd be putting my family and myself at considerable risk.  The cost of the repair is much more palatable.