Retracting flaps after touchdown

[Houman]

Just wondering,

 

I'm practicing my pattern training for my newly purchased M20K rocket and after touch down, I erect the speed breakes and break with the peddals, but keep the flaps extended to 33 as it was during finale. In my prioir experience with C172 and Beech Sundowner C23, usually I retract the flaps after touchdown to make the tire breaking more efficient.

 

I have to say the placement of the flaps switch in the Mooney is something to get used to during touchdown, but should'nt be too bad, just wondering if you rocket owners just use the tire breaks and speed brakes to slow down or retract the flaps once terra ferma is felts...

 

Thanks !!!

[Bob_Belville]

Many instructors warn against touching any switches until clear of the runway. They have in mind the many occasions when the pilot has reached for the flaps and managed to raise the gear.

 

That said, on roll out, after speed is low enough that I will not be airborne again, I usually raise the flaps, open the cowl flaps, and perhaps lean the mixture. All those thing can be done w/o looking away from the runway. (I have a manual gear and hydraulic flaps so it would be pretty hard to grab the big old Johnson Bar by mistake. Of course the primary task is to keep "flying" the plane on the center-line until it is parked and shut down. Other actions can wait if you are not comfortable multitasking.)

[Skywarrior]

I used to believe, "Well, since the flaps switch is so far removed from the gear handle, what's the danger in bringing up the flaps on rollout?"

 

Seems reasonable, right?

 

At least, it did until I read an account from a Mooney pilot who caught himself grabbing the gear switch IOT raise his flaps on rollout. He was shocked that he had done that. Even though there was a twelve-inch physical separation between the two switches!

 

So... I don't touch anything until I've pulled off the runway nowadays...

 

I would rather let someone else's experience teach me something, than teach myself.

[Andy95W]

At slow speeds on rollout, the speed brakes shouldn't have any effect unless you touch down well in excess of stall speed. Spoilers on an airliner extend on landing to dump any residual lift, but that really isn't the case for us. I remember reading back when the Precise Flight speed brakes came out that they were not supposed to adversely affect initial climb during a go around if the pilot forgot to retract them. As you try to speed up, of course, is when you notice the difference.

I fly out of a short runway (about 2000 useable for landing) and if I want to make the first turn-off without flat-spotting the tires, I have to raise the flaps before I get on the brakes- and I'm coming down final around 60 knots for a short field landing. At normal airports I don't touch anything and let the airplane slow on its own.

Then again, I have manual gear and it would be pretty hard to confuse the two levers!

[Seth]

I learned to fly Mooney's at a 2400 foot field with power lines requiring a 30 degree offset on final on one side and a displaced threshold with trees on the other.  Since it was considered short field, as part of short field procedure, you retract flaps on landing to assist with braking on rollout.

 

So, that's what I did during my first however many landings and then every time I came back to home base.  It is not necessary with a longer runway, but I still do it out of habit most of the time.

 

When flying 172's, I never retracted flaps on rollout unless demonstrating short field or if I was positioning the flaps for touch and go takeoffs.

 

As mentioned, we did have a pilot on this board accidently retract gear on rollout when meaning to retract flaps.  I truly appreciate him sharing the story as we all learned from it - he could have stayed silent.

 

Other aircraft, and I'm not picking on the Bonanza, just using it as an example, has the gear and flap positions reversed in some models which I'm sure has contributed to this phenomenon. 

 

If you runway is long enough, no need to retract flaps until off the runway for cleanup.  If it's short, or you need to make a turnoff, then retract flaps.  In a go around, remember to retract to takeoff/approach settings establish climb, and then retract the rest of the way (trim!!!).

 

I'm now based at a 4200 foot runway with clear approaches on both ends - technically I don't need to raise flaps - I find I still do sometimes from that initial training.  I tend to raise flaps at any airport less than 3000 feet or if I touchdown long (as opposed to going around which I should have done - happens rarely now, but still once in a while).

 

-Seth

[WardHolbrook]

My advice would be NOT to touch or move anything during the landing roll out that is not absolutely necessary - flaps, air brakes, cowl flaps, radio frequencies, anything. It's a bad habit that really can come back and bite you. Occasionally, there may be some times where reconfiguring would be necessary (ie a touch and go), but those are exceptions to the rule. In a jet, few things will draw the ire of captain faster than having the guy in the right seat start to flip switches during the roll out. You are not saving any time or being any more efficient. All you're doing is distracting yourself from the task at hand. (In my airplane, I tells guys that do that that I will break their fingers if they screw around like that again.) Now, if you've got a ways to taxi prior to clearing the runway, then you might call "Taxi speed" once the deceleration phase of over and then run your after landing check list, but the last time I checked, decelerating during the landing roll out was considered part of the landing and you need to concentrate on the task at hand. When it comes to flaps or gear, I ALWAYS look and verify that I am on the proper lever before I move it. In some airplanes it's all too easy to grab the wrong one. Take your time, be deliberate. What's the rush?         

[carusoam]

When driving, ever stop hard to activate the ABS system to see if really improves stopping distance or improve directional control? (I'm sure some of us...)

Studying how the brain works, or doesn't work...

They use the word 'distracted' to describe what the brain does when it pulls the wrong switch. It is a process that gives the brain the feeling that is doing a proper thing even when it's not...

Yes, the big switch shaped like a wheel, high on the panel is hard to confuse for a small flap shaped switch, placed lower in a different place...

But, after a long flight, short on fuel, sleep and food, while long on crummy weather and stress. The brain really isn't that good for ordinary people doing extraordinary things...

So when trained to not touch anything on the runway, it's because you got brain version 1.0...

If you have extra money, flip all the switches you want. Then measure the distance difference with and without flaps...

Somebody reported a 300' landing the other day. That's what happens when you land gear up.

Land into the wind, maintain proper air speed on final, apply brakes and pull back on the yoke.

Stopping any harder, becomes tough on brakes and tires.

Dumping flaps or popping speed brakes still needs to be balanced with good braking technique.

How much risk do you want to add? How much more are you willing to spend?

Some people are more easily distracted than others. Others have better speed control...

I have a 4,000' runway...

It may be right for some and wrong for others. But, now you have the logic to decide for yourself....

What say you now?

Best regards,

-a-

[Jerry 5TJ]

......I have a C model with Johnson bar gear. Not a chance I'll accidentally retract the gear...

My prior "E" had an on-runway gear retraction, Johnson bar notwithstanding.   Once you grab that handle, your habits take over; your thumb depresses the lock and you slide the sleeve down 'automatically'...and if there is weight on the gear you can't hold the bar vertical even with both hands.   At least that's what he told me when describing his gear up event. 

 

I make a fetish of never touching the J-bar when on the ground.  

[Andy95W]

In the 1970 M20C Ranger POH it says:

"For maximum braking effect, raise the flaps and apply back pressure on the control wheel as you apply brakes. Do not skid the main wheels, as doing so will reduce braking effectiveness and damage the tires."

BTW, the 1970 M20C had electric landing gear, not the Johnson Bar.

[WardHolbrook]

In the 1970 M20C Ranger POH it says:

"For maximum braking effect, raise the flaps and apply back pressure on the control wheel as you apply brakes. Do not skid the main wheels, as doing so will reduce braking effectiveness and damage the tires."

BTW, the 1970 M20C had electric landing gear, not the Johnson Bar.

Of course, that goes without saying, but seriously, how often do you need "maximum braking effect"? If you're flying off of a 2000' or shorter runway that's one thing. If you're like most of us and could takeoff and land two or three times on one trip down the runway, that's something else. The term "maximum braking" means something when it comes to airplanes. It is an abnormal manuever, normally saved for "special" occassions. You probably wouldn't like it as a passenger in an airliner or bizjet. Just as you wouldn't like it if someone did it all of the time in your car. All I'm saying is that for most of us, most of the time, there is no need and nothing to be gained by screwing around with anything during the landing roll out. There are times when you are best served by just sitting on your hands.  

[Andy95W]

Of course, that goes without saying, but seriously, how often do you need "maximum braking effect"? If you're flying off of a 2000' or shorter runway that one thing. If you're like most of us and could takeoff and land two or three times on one trip down the runway, that's something else. All I'm saying is that for most of us, most of the time, there is no need and nothing to be gained by screwing around with anything during the landing roll out. There are times when you are best served by just sitting on your hands.

I need maximum braking affect every landing at my home airport- landing distance available about 2000' with rough patches at both ends- I've been on grass strips that were smoother- and I'm coming down final at 65 mph.

I also dislike flying with people who try to do too much at the wrong times, and yes, oftentimes those people would be best served by sitting on their hands instead.

I also think it is worthwhile to understand the capabilities of our machines and practice those things regularly. No flap landings, soft/short field takeoffs and landings, etc.

And don't get me started on No Flap Takeoffs!

[WardHolbrook]

Like I said, "If you're flying off of a 2000' or shorter runway that's one thing." You're doing it the way I would be doing it under those conditions, but the point remains, most of us aren't operating off of a 2000' runway.   

[WardHolbrook]

I also think it is worthwhile to understand the capabilities of our machines and practice those things regularly. No flap landings, soft/short field takeoffs and landings, etc.

And don't get me started on No Flap Takeoffs!

You are preaching to the choir my friend. Go back and read though my posts over the years, I preach recurrent training and plenty of it. You've got to practice this stuff on a regular basis - period. Even in the Falcon we do no flap landing practice in the sim. That's a real hoot, but we only practice that particular manuever in the sim. (I've had to do it two or three times over the years in various airplanes because of systems failures.) Depending upon weight, ref speeds in swept-wing jets without flaps can get eye-watering and the conditions that usually would result in no flaps being available also leave you with compromise braking capabilities. It makes for interesting approaches to very long runways. At work, I take advantage of dead-head legs to practice the occasional maximum effort landing. Even in the Falcon 900, I can consistently plant it on the numbers and make the turn off 2200' from the threshold. I would never do it with the boss on board, it's borderline violent and we wouldn't want him to spill his coffee, but I do get compliments from the tower everytime we do it. (Grin) You're right, you need to do stuff like that on occasion to keep the apple polished.  

[Andy95W]

Like doing no flap landings in the Airbus sim into Bogota, Columbia- 9000' above sea level.

[WardHolbrook]

Like doing no flap landings in the Airbus sim into Bogota, Columbia- 9000' above sea level.

In the Falcon 900, we do not have fuel dumping capability like we did on most of the other jets I've flown. It can make for some interesting ref speeds limited only by our 195 knot tire ground speed limit. Of course, the sim instructors seem to take great delight in setting up the most interesting scenarios - like Bogota. 

[Hank]

In the 1970 M20C Ranger POH it says:

"For maximum braking effect, raise the flaps and apply back pressure on the control wheel as you apply brakes. Do not skid the main wheels, as doing so will reduce braking effectiveness and damage the tires."

BTW, the 1970 M20C had electric landing gear, not the Johnson Bar.

 

That's what mine says. My home field for seven years was 3000' with trees at both ends, and I routinely retracted flaps during rollout, especially with three or four people or lots of luggage. I can hold the throttle to idle and reach the flap switch with my fingers without looking; the gear knob is much too far away.

 

It boils down to your decision as PIC. Sometimes I'm busy fighting a crosswind or balloon, and taxi back in with flaps still down. Both work. Forgetting to raise them will rarely cause a problem.

 

Reconfiguring on a touch-and-go takes more concentration and at least 5000' of runway. It is definitely a busy time, with split attention, and not something I do routinely [unless out with a CFII doing multiple approaches].

[Guest]

I'm not sure of the braking difference between rubber and aluminum belly skins, I think aluminum is better, but more expensive.

As others have said don't touch anything until stopped, if its a touch and go why not use take off setting?

Clarence

[cbarry]

This discussion reminds me of a bad habit a friend of mine that I used to fly with right seat is his CE340 got into. He started chopping power at about 5ft. off of the ground (during landing) in order to get a "braking" effect out of the flat-pitched props. This functioned quite well up to the point he started misjudging height above the ground. After having a few unexpected hard landings, he quickly realized that this extra trick was not wise. Landing a Mooney with half flaps works well for me. I'm now configured for takeoff (with only a slight trim adjustment) and when it's parked, half flaps helps non pilot passengers avoid stepping on them as they deplane.

[aaronk25]

I used to believe, "Well, since the flaps switch is so far removed from the gear handle, what's the danger in bringing up the flaps on rollout?" Seems reasonable, right? At least, it did until I read an account from a Mooney pilot who caught himself grabbing the gear switch IOT raise his flaps on rollout. He was shocked that he had done that. Even though there was a twelve-inch physical separation between the two switches! So... I don't touch anything until I've pulled off the runway nowadays... I would rather let someone else's experience teach me something, than teach myself.

Wonder what Mooneyspace member did did that . Seriously guys were flying airplanes that have to stall at or under 61kts and unless your landing on 1700ft fields, let's not make it more complicated than it is. If it's a short field slow the plane up more than normal on final and "drag it in on the prop" and if done right when you cut the power it should set down very firmly on the mains. All these other stupid human tricks in the cockpits don't make pilots that are flying slow stalling GA planes look like Learjet drivers. There isn't any large spoilers on mooneys because we don't need them. This mix up cost me months of loss of use and my insurance company 60k. Yes I grabbed the gear switch instead of the flap switch, yes it was me. I put on 300hours a year in my mooney, maybe those that start flipping switches immediately after landing are better pilots than me....maybe not but the point is, don't add risk if the return isn't needed. Btw I dropped into a 1700ft strip without raising the flaps. Be a better pilot and control speed better and there is no need for stupid human tricks in the cockpit.

[jetdriven]

The Mooney M20J and later have the best designed gear and flap switches for not confusing the two, yet it still happens.

[aaronk25]

I'll admit I am new to the a Mooney. I still only have forty hours in the thing ... but this is no "stupid human trick."

I was TRAINED to retract the flaps by an experienced CFI who has owned Mooneys over the years. I have done it almost every single landing. I practice it. It is part of a normal landing task ... not trying to convince anyone to do anything they consider risky ... but this works for me ... I plan to continue to use this technique.

To me the thing is still a little squirrelly at touchdown ... and until the flaps are up it doesn't seem to sit firmly on the ground - it acts like it still wants to fly. Are you guys experiencing this feeling?

I am have revisited my approach speed on final ... and have reduced it by 5-10 mph depending on weight and winds, and that has greatly helped in the floating department.

From my perspective the Mooney just doesn't "hold onto the runway" until those flaps are up or speed is significantly reduced. I don't like feeling like a passenger the first few seconds after touchdown ... that transition from the wings carrying the load to the wheels completely carrying the load seems to take longer in the Mooney. For me: Retracting the flaps reduces that exposure time.

I have just replaced the donuts and installed a new upper truss with stops and installed the spacer on the nose-gear from the SB, so I think I have a mechanically sound plane?

For the past fifteen years my flying (other than H-60s in the Guard) has been jets with auto ground spoilers systems ... and once those spoilers deploy - she's for sure on the ground! Maybe I am expecting the same from a Mooney ... and that's just not how she rolls? But I don't think so ...

Just curious:

How do the first few seconds after all the wheels are down go for you ... ?

Do you feel there is a period of time ... where she's not really flying anymore ... but she's not really completely on the ground either?

Your landing to fast. If you cross the fence to fast....fine...but hold it off the runway until it won't fly anymore. When my mains touch the stall horn is going and it is done flying.....period.

If it feels like it wants to fly after you landed it's because, well it does still want to fly, kind of. Landing with to much speed is common in mooneys, for newly transitioned pilots.

Lifting the flaps early is a crutch for landing to fast. Just work on it...you'll get it to plant squarely and smoothly on the mains without engaging in cockpit gymnastics (is that better than stupid human tricks? )

Not sure why a CFI would recommend this as a standard practice if it's not in the POH. If the mooney test pilots wanted us landing this way it would be in the POH.

[Hank]

The crutch for landing too fast that I've used twice on a 2000' grass strip is to raise the flaps while floating serenely along at 3' AGL.

My Owners Manual says that it's okay to raise flaps after touchdown to improve breaking. Let me look for the page.

[Andy95W]

I'm with Daver328.

Anybody else noticed that flaps usage draws a lot of strong opinions?

Flaps on takeoff?

Retract flaps on landing?

Someone oughta do a study...

[Andy95W]

Your landing to fast. If you cross the fence to fast....fine...but hold it off the runway until it won't fly anymore. When my mains touch the stall horn is going and it is done flying.....period.

If it feels like it wants to fly after you landed it's because, well it does still want to fly, kind of. Landing with to much speed is common in mooneys, for newly transitioned pilots.

Lifting the flaps early is a crutch for landing to fast. Just work on it...you'll get it to plant squarely and smoothly on the mains without engaging in cockpit gymnastics (is that better than stupid human tricks? )

Not sure why a CFI would recommend this as a standard practice if it's not in the POH. If the mooney test pilots wanted us landing this way it would be in the POH.

It is in the POH. See post #10, above.

[aaronk25]

Must be in the newer J's POH as I never saw it in my 77...please post it. So I can say with some certainty that I stand corrected.

So it's ok to retract them after landing and I'm fine with that, just didn't wanna see anyone damage their plane. It's so easy to get distracted, both switches go up. Brain links weird things together especially during times of increased stress....tower changes something plane on taxi way creeps for a few feet and stops while your landing. Just of things that can kick a pilot out of their routine especially when quick movements are needed.

Take care all.