donkaye Posted July 12, 2014 Report Posted July 12, 2014 This may not be related, but then again it may. I've had a continual problem with the G500 and GMA 35 not giving me the required visual and aural response to the Marker Beacons. I first replaced the antenna for a couple of hundred dollars. That didn't work. Then replaced the cable ends. That didn't work. Then tried another GMA 35 from a student's airplane. That was worse than mine. Today we replaced the whole cable. So everything has been replaced and nothing worked. So Peter looked inside at the connector and started looking at the pin going into the GMA 35. It was NOT locking in place. Every time he pushed the unit in it has apparently moved back not enough to get no signal but just enough to minimize it. So he is going to replace the whole connector. We expect this to solve the problem. Maybe you have a bad connector and the pin is not locking in place. Just a thought. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted July 12, 2014 Report Posted July 12, 2014 This may not be related, but then again it may. I've had a continual problem with the G500 and GMA 35 not giving me the required visual and aural response to the Marker Beacons. I first replaced the antenna for a couple of hundred dollars. That didn't work. Then replaced the cable ends. That didn't work. Then tried another GMA 35 from a student's airplane. That was worse than mine. Today we replaced the whole cable. So everything has been replaced and nothing worked. So Peter looked inside at the connector and started looking at the pin going into the GMA 35. It was NOT locking in place. Every time he pushed the unit in it has apparently moved back not enough to get no signal but just enough to minimize it. So he is going to replace the whole connector. We expect this to solve the problem. Maybe you have a bad connector and the pin is not locking in place. Just a thought. Funny you should mention this. It was a suggestion by the avionics shop as well. Apart from the comm problems, the GPS has been solid. I keep notes on problems and I found a note back from January 2013 where I lost GPS signal for the overlay on an ILS approach. Ironically, this loss was at the same airport, for the same runway although I had the LPV approach loaded instead of the ILS. I have not had issues with any other airport or any enroute issues. Strange... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
RocketAviator Posted July 12, 2014 Author Report Posted July 12, 2014 Count me in for any opportunity to meet with Garmin to see if we could encourage their support in resolving these issues. (many of which appear to be very similar). I have owned and repurchased Garmin based on their reputation and personal history with their products giving in to their higher price with the expectation for good products. If the issue on my units are not corrected fairly soon I won't ever purchase another Garmin and will diligently work to let all know of the issues I have had and steer them away from Garmin if possible. I have had good support from my avionics shop even replacing the 750 with new one a few mints ago. Quote
RocketAviator Posted July 12, 2014 Author Report Posted July 12, 2014 Do we or should we compile a comprehensive list of the all our squawks so we can be relatively concise when we meet with them! Quote
Marauder Posted July 12, 2014 Report Posted July 12, 2014 For me Lacee, the issues have been primarily: 1) lack of range on the Comm 2) screen flicker that has yet to be fixed via firmware 3) fuel flow not reporting. Can't remember which fuel flow transducer it won't work with. I'm treating this recent GPS dropout as an environmental phenomenon. It has happened twice in 18 months and both times at the same airport and the same runway. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
jlunseth Posted July 12, 2014 Report Posted July 12, 2014 The problem with going to Garmin is that they will always, 100% of the time, bounce you back to the installer. They won't work with you directly to solve anything. Then they limit the installer's options for correcting, and he is in business to sell Garmin so if he wants to pick a fight with Garmin for you, it will hurt him. Nice system. Look, the GPS's are great. I have never seen a failure of any kind in hundreds of hours. The radios not so much. Don't ditch your King if you still have one. 1 Quote
flyboy0681 Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 I'm talking about using the GTN-650 RAIM prediction page, see pg 14-10 in pilots guide. No Java or IPAD required. When I did my instrument training, I did this every time. My CFI beat that into my head as well and it's the second item on my checklist. Quote
PTK Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 Do we or should we compile a comprehensive list of the all our squawks so we can be relatively concise when we meet with them! The "squawks" some people have experienced are botched installation issues! The installer has to be told to call Garmin field engineers for step by step instructions. Some installers think they know everything but need to be reminded they don't! Quote
Marauder Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 The "squawks" some people have experienced are botched installation issues! The installer has to be told to call Garmin field engineers for step by step instructions. Some installers think they know everything but need to be reminded they don't! Pete -- this past week I had a LONG talk with an owner of a respected avionics shop. The reality of these situations sits somewhere in between an installation done poorly and a product design that can be impacted by environmental factors. Let me give you an example in another industry. I own a Ford pickup with their self designed 6.7L Diesel engine. There have been reports of HPFP failures due to water ingestion. Ford claims that the trucks in question were subjected to water introduced while fueling or by accidentally refilling the DEF fluid into the fuel instead of the DEF reservoir. As a result, they rejected warranty claims to the tune of $10k+ for each truck impacted. Seems pretty simple, you put the water in the tank, warranty rejected. Or is it? Ford recognized that water and high pressure fuel injection don't work well together. To address this, the design of the fuel system contains a built-in water trap to catch any water in the fuel. The trap consists of a low point filter and an engine mounted filter. The low point filter also has a water sensor to give a warning to the driver. Unfortunately, in the case of substantial water introduction, the warning light comes on just in time to watch the engine being killed. A better solution would have been to put another water sensor after the final filter to shutdown the engine immediately before it can get to the HPFP (most water ingestion is done at the fuel pump or when an owner introduces DEF fluid used for the emissions by accident). I think that is what is happening with modern avionics. Our planes have been modified over the years and as a result, avionics can be influenced by the environmental factors in the plane. Is it the manufacturer's fault? Perhaps not, then again perhaps a design that can be easily influenced by environmental factors may not be such a great design. My comments are NOT directed at Garmin specifically. It seems, based on the conversation I had, to be an observation for most avionics manufacturers. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
PTK Posted July 14, 2014 Report Posted July 14, 2014 "Environmental factors in the plane..." Is that what they're feeding you! That's a good one and a new one! Real comedians! Why don't you ask them when was the last time they went to Garmin for training? Chris, I call it installer incompetence. As in they're in way over their head incompetent. As I have learned from folks who know a lot more than I do, the GTN is an extremely complex and thus capable piece of avionics. Behind all that capability we enjoy is a very complex marvel of avionics engineering. NOT a new and improved GNS of the "flip through the install manual and install it" garden variety as some avionics shops have mistakenly assumed. It presents a real learning curve for avionics installers. A highly reputable shop told me once that they "know the 530 like the back of their hand. The GTN is sufficiently different to require GTN specific training." Now anybody, avionics shops included, can say anything they want. But in my book Chris the bottom line is they need to do their job, and if they can't they need to be honest and send us elsewhere. Really. In this case they need to learn the GTN and install it correctly. That's why we pay them the big bucks! Not to give us excuses trying to mask their incompetence. May I respectfully suggest you have your installer call Garmin and speak with a field engineer. Walt is one name off the top of my head. They'll instruct him on what he needs to do and how to do it right. Incidentally, such incompetence explains why a few installations have been problematic but most have been trouble free. Quote
jlunseth Posted July 15, 2014 Report Posted July 15, 2014 flyboy and teejayevans- Why would you be doing RAIM prediction with a 650? It is WAAS and RAIM prediction is not important and not required. RAIM prediction was required for the older, non-WAAS type GPS's. Quote
flyboy0681 Posted July 15, 2014 Report Posted July 15, 2014 flyboy and teejayevans- Why would you be doing RAIM prediction with a 650? It is WAAS and RAIM prediction is not important and not required. RAIM prediction was required for the older, non-WAAS type GPS's. The built in RAIM detection used when the approach is loaded won't tell you of integrity problems until you actually punch in the approach. Using the RAIM utility will give you a jump start way before you enter the terminal area, when things are a little less harried. Quote
Mooney_Allegro Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 Hi Pat, Count me in on a meeting w/Garmin at Oshkosh. I'll be at Oshkosh Aug 2nd & 3rd only. My GTN's were installed by Sarasota Avionics, I believe they are Garmin's largest installer of the GTN's. Here is the list of descrepancies: 1) GTN 750 range is very low. I have to monitor the GTN 650 to make sure I don't miss a center radio call. 2) GTN 650 has constant squelch breaks up to 45 seconds, even after 2 different Garmin dealers made numerous adjustments. 3) The GTN 650 display blinks so frequently that it looks like Christmas tree lights. (blinks every few seconds) 4) Annoying squelch break at end of every "inbound" transmission. Lasts about 1-2 seconds. My install was done in Feb. 2014, so it's very recent & I have all the latest versions of software. These issues have greatly increased my work load in IFR conditions. I have to monitor the 650 w/the same frequency as the 750, & the squelch breaks are so bad with the 650, that you don't want to monitor the 650 at all. I consider this a safety issue. Next week Sarasota Avionics is swapping both my units out for new ones, under Garmin's direction. I should have more data late next week. 1 Quote
Marauder Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 Hi Pat, Count me in on a meeting w/Garmin at Oshkosh. I'll be at Oshkosh Aug 2nd & 3rd only. My GTN's were installed by Sarasota Avionics, I believe they are Garmin's largest installer of the GTN's. Here is the list of descrepancies: 1) GTN 750 range is very low. I have to monitor the GTN 650 to make sure I don't miss a center radio call. 2) GTN 650 has constant squelch breaks up to 45 seconds, even after 2 different Garmin dealers made numerous adjustments. 3) The GTN 650 display blinks so frequently that it looks like Christmas tree lights. (blinks every few seconds) 4) Annoying squelch break at end of every "inbound" transmission. Lasts about 1-2 seconds. My install was done in Feb. 2014, so it's very recent & I have all the latest versions of software. These issues have greatly increased my work load in IFR conditions. I have to monitor the 650 w/the same frequency as the 750, & the squelch breaks are so bad with the 650, that you don't want to monitor the 650 at all. I consider this a safety issue. Next week Sarasota Avionics is swapping both my units out for new ones, under Garmin's direction. I should have more data late next week. Hey Pete! You reading this? Allegro -- I have #1 but on a 650 and #3. I have a video of #3 doing this... Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 3) The GTN 650 display blinks so frequently that it looks like Christmas tree lights. (blinks every few seconds) Are you using the lighting bus or photocell to determine your brightness? If lighting bus, you might tried configuring to use the photocell, could be a rheostat problem. Quote
Mooney_Allegro Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 Are you using the lighting bus or photocell to determine your brightness? If lighting bus, you might tried configuring to use the photocell, could be a rheostat problem. Various data fields blink at different times on the GTN650, every few seconds. My GTN's are not on a rheostat, it uses an internal photocell. Garmin acknowledges these units have a blinking problem through a service letter I received through email months ago. Currently there is no fix, but they said that a fix will be available sometime with a future update. Quote
jlunseth Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 On the install of my 430AW, we have already checked out the "its the installer or the antenna" argument that Garmin made. The King is good and is on one antenna, the Garmin is the problem and it is on another antenna. So free of charge, my installer switched the two radios so the Garmin was on the "known good" antenna. Same result, the ancient King beats the Garmin and the Garmin still loses reception. Quote
Marauder Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 Various data fields blink at different times on the GTN650, every few seconds. My GTN's are not on a rheostat, it uses an internal photocell. Garmin acknowledges these units have a blinking problem through a service letter I received through email months ago. Currently there is no fix, but they said that a fix will be available sometime with a future update. The screen flicker I am seeing is shown in this video at 1:43. Sometimes like Allegro's observations, it is a series of flickers. http://youtu.be/o-B_9SzekTo Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
PTK Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 These are installation issues folks! An installer who is up to speed can properly configure the units. Chris, unlike your truck example here's a relevant example: I know for a fact, because I have it in my airplane, that in order for the FS450 fuel flow to communicate with the GTN there is a procedure that needs to be followed at install. It involves setting up a one time temporary ground speed and destination on the GTN (i.e Demo mode) initially. This needs to be done once. After this is done initially then it will work beautifully! If not done info will not flow both ways. The 450 will receive info from the GTN but will not send info back to update ff on the GTN. Most installers know this and some don't. Those who don't will eventually learn about it on some unfortunate customer's installation! Quote
ArtVandelay Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 Here is the still frame of what happens: The screen flicker I am seeing is shown in this video at 1:43. Sometimes like Allegro's observations, it is a series of flickers. Quote
Marauder Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 These are installation issues folks! An installer who is up to speed can properly configure the units. Example: I know for a fact, because I have it in my airplane, that in order for the FS450 fuel flow to communicate with the GTN there is a procedure that needs to be followed at install. It involves setting up a one time temporary ground speed and destination on the GTN (i.e Demo mode) initially. This needs to be done once. After this is done initially then it will work beautifully! If not done info will not flow both ways. The 450 will receive info from the GTN but will not send info back to update ff on the GTN. Most installers know this and some don't. Those who don't will eventually learn about it on some unfortunate customer's installation! Pete -- my fuel flow worked when it was installed. It stopped working when the shop installed 3.0 to fix another issue. I was told by 2 different shops that through 5.0, it still has not been fixed. The shop I last visited suggested going back to 2.X. Now that is progress! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
Marauder Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 Here is the still frame of what happens: {style_image_url}/attachicon.gif flick.jpg Nice editing! It would have taken me all day to get that shot! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
Marauder Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 And BTW Pete, Sarasota Avionics is one of the most well known installers in the country. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
flyboy0681 Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 Pete -- my fuel flow worked when it was installed. It stopped working when the shop installed 3.0 to fix another issue. I was told by 2 different shops that through 5.0, it still has not been fixed. The shop I last visited suggested going back to 2.X. Now that is progress! Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk This was fixed in release 4.0. Garmin acknowledged the software error in its release notes. Quote
Marauder Posted July 16, 2014 Report Posted July 16, 2014 This was fixed in release 4.0. Garmin acknowledged the software error in its release notes. Does that hold true for the EI transducers? I know they were dealing with issues with the Shadin ones. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
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