Mooney based weapons systems?

[Steve65E-NC]

About a decade ago a  retired Marine General told me that the US Marines had briefly evaluated the Mooney as an observation or close support aircraft.  Probably Vietnam era.  As I recall, he said the conflict was winding down and this  went nowhere.

 

Yesterday a fellow was telling me, with some confidence,  that the Republic of Israel had actually developed the Mooney as a weapon at some point in the past  and did deployed it.  I had never heard this before.

 

 Anybody have more historical information on either of these two leads???

 

I think we all know that Mooney offered a  bubble canopy prototype for an Airforce trainer.

 

 

Steve    

[jrwilson]

_{I wonder if this is a case of all small planes being "Cessnas?"  Vietnam had Cessna FAC planes, as well as others.  Never heard of Isreal trying it either, maybe the other fellow mistook the name "Mooney" and "Marchetti?"  Or maybe Mooney strapped rocket and machine gun pods to a plane which would fare horribly on unprepared jungle and desert strips?  Eh, probably not.}

[jrwilson]

Besides, lots of other production aircraft had better wing position for an observation role.    Crazier things have happened though.  A true historical story about how Isreal turned the Mirage III into the KFIR is very interesting though.

[DS1980]

There was a version of the M-18 Mite, dubbed the M-19 that was fitted with machine guns for a light support role. Never made the grade.

[N201MKTurbo]

Do you mean this thing?

 

http://1000aircraftphotos.com/Contributions/KleinBernhard/5429.htm

[TWinter]

That is very cool. I knew we were fast and furious. Like it!!

[MooneyMitch]

"There was a version of the M-18 Mite, dubbed the M-19 that was fitted with machine guns for a light support role. Never made the grade."

 

In actuallity, if you watch Boots On the Ground: The Men and Women Who Made Mooney, you will hear specific information from Bill Wheat regarding the M19 which will dispell your statement "never made the grade".

 

Lots of other historical information provided in this DVD from the folks that truly know...........the people that made the airplanes and knew Al and Art well.

[MooneyMitch]

@ N201MKTurbo. 

The link you provided shows the Predator.  Watch Boots and you can learn about this plane and how it came to be, from the folks that actually built it.  Fun stuff ..

[MooneyMitch]

We will ask Herbie Witt and Bill Wheat one more time at Mapa Homecoming.  They are the stars on Boots premier night in Kerrville :-)  Thanks Jim.

[MooneyMitch]

We'll ask that specifically Jim. 

[TWinter]

Speaking of Homecoming I'm still working on attending. For anyone wanting to go there are still some rooms available as well as rental cars (according to online checks). I guess there is another big event happening the same weekend so get them while you can. I called MAPA and she said they have had excellent response and are expecting a couple of hundred Mooniacs so far.   

[Steve65E-NC]

Israel lead was given to my source by a long time Mooney owner.  I told him I would check it out on the web lists.  Guess it could have been the Mite M-19 mentioned above.   So far no one has  offered any verification.   I don't think that military is constrained by jungle conditions.  And,  If the mission were essentially  kamakazi (no reason to believe this), landing would not matter much.  

 

Steve

[DS1980]

"There was a version of the M-18 Mite, dubbed the M-19 that was fitted with machine guns for a light support role. Never made the grade."

 

In actuallity, if you watch Boots On the Ground: The Men and Women Who Made Mooney, you will hear specific information from Bill Wheat regarding the M19 which will dispell your statement "never made the grade".

 

Lots of other historical information provided in this DVD from the folks that truly know...........the people that made the airplanes and knew Al and Art well.

Why not ask Elroy Hilbert, who flew the M-19:

 

"The Brass never consulted me or asked my opinion, but if they had, I'd have said I didn't like the idea of making my patrol car an instant target. This was definitely not a Close Support Aggressive Vehicle, and if it displayed aggressive behavior, it would instantly draw fire from every available source. It would also have been necessary to have complete air superiority because the airplane could not survive an enemy fighter attack.

There were several reasons why the Army treated the M-19 with disdain. The "Old Time Army Aviators" were afraid of the tricycle gear, for one. Also, it had no armor plate or defensive equipment and did present a somewhat frail appearance next to the massive L-5 which they were accustomed to. The armament consisted of two .30 caliber machine guns located in the wing roots and firing just outside the arc of the propeller. They were manually charged (cocked) by two D handles attached to cables at each side of the cockpit floor. There was precious little space for extra ammo. I think about fifty rounds was all they could handle.

There were no hard points for rockets that I know of. The initial velocity for rocket launch stability at that time was about 180 knots. Some real problems came to the fore when some of our frustrated, would-be, close-support pilots purloined rockets from the other services and attempted to use them from the Cessna L-19s.

The Brass as individuals may have liked the concept but, all in all, the fun part of the flying machine in no way made it suitable for its military concept. Being a single place aircraft was a disadvantage. To accurately direct artillery fire really called for an Observer. No room for one.

The tail draggers routinely operated from unimproved airstrips of decidedly short length, over fences and under wires. We were known as Army Fliers. We landed on beaches, curved roads, up hill, over obstacles on take-off and landing, and we banged up airplanes doing it.

In the eyes of the Brass, after looking at the L-5 and then the new L-19, the Mooney looked very fragile and small. Those little wheels demanded improved landing surfaces. The nose gear could easily drop into a rut or drop off and get the prop.

The real crux, as I said, was that the airplane couldn't live in a combat environment if it showed aggression. It would become an instant target. and again, it would have had to have complete air superiority in order to survive."

 

Source: http://www.mooneymite.com/articles-history/hilbert.m-19.htm

 

So what is wrong with saying it didn't make the grade?

[Piloto]

There was a version of the M-18 Mite, dubbed the M-19 that was fitted with machine guns for a light support role. Never made the grade.

It will make the grade for a terrorist or a maniac At least not as bad a B777 on its way to the USA.

 

José 

[MooneyMitch]

Might be fun to get Bill and Elroy together for some chit chat, eh? 

[DS1980]

Yea, are they too old for a cage fight?

[MooneyMitch]

Regardless, these people, Bill Wheat included, are absolute treasures and watching and hearing them tell these stories is priceless!  We collected over 15 hours of video material of them, edited down to 1 hr. 45 min.'s. with the final cut.

 

Watching and editing for months and months, we just fell in love with all of them.  Hope you get a chance to watch too!  It's a great American story!!

[mooneygirl]

Hi all

I am just off the phone with Herbie Witt [who developed the Predator prototype], Bill Wheat and Mike Miles.  We had a great conversation about the Predator, the M19, and all things Mooney.  For those able to attend MAPA Homecoming next week, we will have a cast table at the Boots on the Ground Premiere on Thursday evening at 6:30.  Herbie, Bill, Mike, Stanley Feller, and all the others will be available to answer your Mooney questions.  Mike is prepared to talk about slipping, stalling and spinning Mooneys! LOL.  Anyway, we are so lucky to have the Mooney Brain Trust available to us.  Come and enjoy the fun next Thursday. 

I love they call me Miss Jolie, and I am an honorary Texas girl!