To ADF or Not to ADF

[FlyDave]

I had an ADF in my Cherokee and never did a single NDB approach with it - even with the NDB approach at my home field. Through 3 different instrument instructors, none of them thought it was important to learn or practice ADF approaches.

I have an ADF in my mooney (King KR 87) but I'm thinking of taking it out. I also have a 430, KX-155 and KN-64 DME.

My question to the group is: If you have an ADF in your panel (I really don't think anyone would be installing one at this point) would you opt to keep it or remove it to make room for more modern avionics?

Thanks,

[Cruiser]

I have a working ADF and use it all the time. ADF approaches allow much more flexibility prior to the approach. In the winter time when icing is a factor, I can fly to the airport (NDB is on the field) remaining above the clouds, descend in the hold at the NDB and begin the approach from directly over the airport. Very comforting when you want to minimize the time spent in the clouds. We have a VOR DME approach also. ATC will vector me to the approach IAF at an altitude that typically has me in the clouds for miles prior to beginning the approach.

I like the ADF version much, much more.

[carusoam]

ADF is required for the ILS approach into KMMU - Morristown, NJ.  The hold after going missed is an NDB.  See the ADF required note.

[KSMooniac]

Cruiser, is there a GPS overlay approach that mimics the track of the ADF approach?

If I had a 430 on board, I would remove the ADF as soon as I could to save weight.  NDB approaches are going the way of the dodo bird, so the utility of an ADF receiver is diminishing every year.  If you have better alternate nav already on board, I see no reason to keep it in there.  You might even find some poor soul willing to give you some money for it today, too, whereas you likely won't at some point in the future...

Also, you'll realize a slightly measurable drag reduction by removing the ADF antenna...another good reason.

[KSMooniac]

A GPS can be used in lieu of ADF for that MMU approach too since CAT will be in the database as far as I understand it.

[carusoam]

Quote: KSMooniac

A GPS can be used in lieu of ADF....

 

Scott,

I agree.  The NDB will be in the GPS database.  The database will need to be kept updated to be legal.  If you have a 530 and a 430, is that two subscriptions? + one for the handheld...

I am still trudging through the IFR system with freshly downloaded paper plates in one hand and a stack of yesterday's technology in the panel.

Too bad the GPS databases can't be as free as the rest of the government data....

-a-

[140pilot]

Doesnt anyone use the ADF to listen to music or as a primitive strike finder anymore ?

We had a KR 85 and would tune it to a lower clear freq. in summer and if you heard sudden bursts of static you usually knew t storms were around and if you watched the needle if there was enough electrical activity it would point in the general direction of the activity which was close enough for us in the days before XM weather and even WX 8's

[Piloto]

The KR-87 is a real good piece of ADF engineering design. I have one in my M20J and would not remove it. I use it for overseas flights and on some approaches. ADF navigation may be old but it is very reliable. You can get position fixes at a longer distances (over 500nm) than VOR all the way to the ground. It is worldwide used. In the 50s and 60s many airlines were equipped with dual ADF and dual needle RMIs. This offered a quick position fix at glance. Very handy and assuring when over the Atlantic or Pacific. Keep it.

José

 

[dlthig]

What would you replace it with? I'd keep it to listen to the ball game and give me a little flexibility. Get rid of it when it dies, but not before unless you are planning a panel overhaul. BTW, we have an NDB approach requirement to stay current in the C-17.

[FlyDave]

Quote: dlthig

What would you replace it with? I'd keep it to listen to the ball game and give me a little flexibility. Get rid of it when it dies, but not before unless you are planning a panel overhaul. BTW, we have an NDB approach requirement to stay current in the C-17.

[jlunseth]

I just spent quite a bit redoing the panel on my M20K, and after initially thinking I would take the ADF out, I wound up keeping it for a couple of reasons.  I generally don't use it as the main instrument for enroute nav., but we have alot of NDB's in Minnesota, and if I am flying a route and want to check where I am on it, there are always offroute NDB's to tune in.  Mine also has a very good flight timer and I would miss that.

Notwithstanding, I was going to ditch the ADF until I went on a pleasure flight last summer and the GPS quit.  A component had burned out.  That took my GPS, VOR, and what was then the only working radio in the plane, all in one fell swoop.  The only working nav. in that plane was the ADF, and I used it to navigate to a small airport with an NDB and a gas pump, so I could fill up not knowing how long it was going to take to get the plane home NORDO.  Not long, as it turned out.  The NDB and I bonded that day, and you would have to pry it out of my cold dead fingers now.  It was not IMC, in retrospect I was in no real danger, but it sure was comforting to have something in the plane that worked.  The moral of the story is that you can't have enough options.  So I have learned NDB approaches, they are not that hard.

[Wistarmo]

If you have a GPS replace the ADF with a back-up electric attitude indicator.

[Jerry 5TJ]

I'll vote with the "pull out the ADF and toss it" gang.   That's what I did, and I put a second transponder in the space freed up.  A second transponder is a whole lot more useful for IFR flying in the USA today than an ADF.   Throw out that Loran too, while you are at it.

Carry a portable GPS and a battery powered VHF handheld transceiver for backup. 

Yes, if you want to cross the Atlantic in your Mooney and fly the back NDB approach up that fjord in Iceland just like Ernie Gann in Fate is the Hunter, keep the dang thing.  

[231Pilot]

If you keep the ADF for any of the reasons stated in the above comments, it is not unreasonable for a flight examiner, or a CFI (or CFII) to expect you to be able to use it during a check ride, BFR, or IPC.  If you are not going to be somewhat proficient with it, dump it.

[jlunseth]

Yes, if you keep it learn to use it.  It is not that hard.  I have the movable card ADF but find it is easier most of the time to just leave the card on North and use it as a fixed card.  The way I have been taught, it is unnecessary to do the MH+RB=MB math they make you do for the FAA test.  Lots simpler than that.  Works like a charm.

[Earl]

I like having my ADF for a number of reasons.  First, I like to use the timer on ADF for my in the air flight time.  Second, I regulary use it to cross check NDB approach fixes when flying a non-precision approach just like I use my second VOR to cross check fixes.  Third, I like to listen to Rush Limbaugh on AM stations while I am flying.  :-)

[RJBrown]

I want it ALL. ADF, VOR, GPS, DME, LORAN, GPS.

 Did you ever have 2 different GPS units dis engage at the same time? Both telling you they could not find enough satelites. It happens. And according to Murphy, not at a good time.

To consider GPS an ONLY system is short sighted.

I have a KN87 ADF and like having it in the panel. It is a great timer for procedure turns and holds. It is what I use for a flight timer. I love listening to rural AM stations. It can help in avoiding some radio towers. KOA 850 has a 675' tower just SE of KAPA, less than a mile outside the class C. It uses the cheapest and easiest to maintain of all ground based nav systems. Any little town can put a AM transmitter to help find the airport.

I also have a dead KLN88 in the panel, a monument to short sighted political idiots.

I agree they do have limited value and I to would not spend a lot to keep it going but I like having it.

I have seen some plane that were "upgraded" to sell that were left with A KX155 without a glideslope, a GNS430 and a transponder. Talk about an empty panel with all the eggs in one basket.

As for the argument "If you keep the ADF for any of the reasons stated in the above comments, it is not unreasonable for a flight examiner, or a CFI (or CFII) to expect you to be able to use it during a check ride, BFR, or IPC.  If you are not going to be somewhat proficient with it, dump it." It argues  that I would rather be lazy than have something I might need in an emergency.

Every six months I grab my CFII and go do a IPC. Keeps the insurance happy and me legal. Always start with a couple of NDBs complete with procedure turns to get back up to speed, best approach to hone your skills on out there. Then we do the full ILS by hand with the procedure turn followed by some holding just for fun. Only after we have done the work to brush off the dust do we end with a couple of auto pilot coupled ILS to get used to how it reacts and how to use it.

 

[tony]

I know this a bit off topic but I figure I'd ask this question here (since the last post was a year and a half ago) instead of creating a new topic. My sense antenna looks pretty sad and really needs to be replaced or at a minimum have the spring replaced. Where do I get that spring? Everywhere I look for a replacement it says in the fine print "not for a Mooney" I'm sure it’s because of the trim. Does anyone know of a source for the antenna spring?

[takair]

I might have one or two.  I'll look in the hangar this weekend.

[John Pleisse]

Pro football and News/Talk Radio are the best applications. I think with the advent of the Aspen EFD, your old ADF might be of more value.

 Although, I turned off the procedure turn 45 degrees short on the NDB to my home base on the last 6 minutes of my intrument checkride. IA flawless checkride to that point. It alsmost cost me my ticket. I urge all friends to placard the instrument as INOP (operative or not) for their checkrides.

Also, nobody mentioned them being a poor man's  Strikefinder. They really do point to the WX.

[jetdriven]

we removed our inop KR-86 and installed an Aera 500 in a panel dock.   If it was working i would have considered leaving it there.  Sure, for a checkride, deactivate and placard it inop.

[dougmilam]

My aircraft ADF location, right of the altimeter, appears to be an excellent location for a backup attitude indicator.  I plan on installing a 3" RC Allen solid state digital attitude indicator (RCA 2600-3) there next annual.  Does anyone have any feedback about that device.

Doug

[Vref]

a no brainer in Europe keep it..it's a BRNAV requirement..

Its a with all fails you still have someting.....and in europe aswel the only means to lsiten to  airwave music in flight..;-)).....

[PTK]

Quote: FlyDave

I had an ADF in my Cherokee and never did a single NDB approach with it - even with the NDB approach at my home field. Through 3 different instrument instructors, none of them thought it was important to learn or practice ADF approaches.

I have an ADF in my mooney (King KR 87) but I'm thinking of taking it out. I also have a 430, KX-155 and KN-64 DME.

My question to the group is: If you have an ADF in your panel (I really don't think anyone would be installing one at this point) would you opt to keep it or remove it to make room for more modern avionics?

Thanks,

[DaV8or]

If you plan to fly outside the country, maybe keep it. Otherwise, ditch it IMO.