HUH!!! my IFR panel isn't really IFR???

[N6784N]

I have a pretty bare panel when it comes to flying IFR. I have 1 vor head with a GPS that is IFR certified for enroute only and to boot I have a plackard on my panel that say "GPS approved for VFR flight only". My first question is since PENN AVIONCS certified my panel for IFR flight and they updated the database for the GPS can they take the VFR only plackard off? my other question is since the GPS is certified for enroute can I use it to cross reference vors for like intersections legally and can I use the GPS dme in replacement of a hard wired dme in the panel legally. I will put another vor head in the plane if need be but what do you guys think. thnx for any help

[N6843N]

91.205(d)(2) will answer your question as far as two way comm and nav requirements go. That said you will be a very busy fellow switching freq's for cross checks. You can use your GPS any way you wish, just don't tell the friendly fed your using it for something it is not certified for. The down side of your panel is there will be quite a few approach's you will not be able to do. You could remove the "VFR only placard" but why, if your database expires you would have to put it back on to be legal. I leave mine all the time. GPS DME is slightly different than an actual DME radio the later has a slant range. the gps does not, Over a station at 5000 feet a GPS shows 0 miles a true DME will show 1 mile.

[Cruiser]

Even though a GPS is certified (by the manufacturer) for enroute IFR use, it must be installed to meet IFR requirements including location (viewed by the pilot) etc. IF the unit was not checked and/or does not meet the installation requirements it cannot be used for IFR even if the "unit" is certified to IFR standards. 

[carusoam]

Apparently IFR comes in different levels, basic or minimum all the way up to GPS driven synthetic vision that can land a 747 by itself.

Were you planning on using your plane for your own IFR training?

typical things that you may find with an IFR installation of a GPS:

[1] Does GPS drive the VOR head?  When it does, does it have an indicator (little blue light) that tells the pilot that GPS is driving the VOR head and it is not the Nav radio doing the driving?

[2] Does it have remote enunciators (Leg/OBS mode, waypoint, message, Approach arm etc.)

[3] Does it automatically check RAIM (accuracy) prior to arming the approach.  (This one eliminates most hand held units)

These may not all be required as indicated above, based on installation and proximity to the pilot's view.  These little things assure the pilot that he is following viable guidance to the ground.  Without these aids, I feel that it is too easy for me to think I have viable guidance and go to the ground unguided. 

The basics of IFR legal (for the plane).

[1] Pitot / static check.

[2] Navigation equipment required for the approach to be used.....(one VOR is a one trick poney, technically usable for approaches in combination with an "IFR" clock)

[3] I see the VOR head in your photo has Glides Slope also  (If this is working, you have a very strong two trick poney.)  Precision approach is at your service.

Having VOR and ILS approaches available with one radio can work pretty well, IF you can use your GPS to identify cross radials, intersections and "DME" distance.  GPS is a legal substitute for DME on instrument approaches.  Slant range error is pointed out in the post above.  You probably would not add DME to the plane to get a less acurate readings.

As far as using one radio to identify an intersection.  It sounds nice, but it is terribly impractical.  In the NY area, the flight plan will change early and often and it is difficult to keep up at Mooney speeds.  I still find it challenging to twist knobs on the GPS and keep up with the rapid fire environment.

It is helpful to keep up with ATC if you have something to hold your wings level while you try.  Do you have the wing leveler (PC) or any other autopilot?

Most IFR plans that I use are VOR to VOR with a couple of intersections thrown in front and back, followed by the more simple IAPs of VOR, ILS and GPS (some still may require ADF or DME to identify intermediate waypoints if the GPS is not legal)

I am a recent IFR graduate.  I used a plane with two Navcoms, one with glide slope, and an IFR GPS.  The instructors pressed to use the VOR / ILS for everything and GPS for distance.  Very little time was spent teaching GPS approaches.  If you can execute the VOR and ILS in the traditional method, GPS approaches don't take much additional time.

I would be looking for the following:

[1] Is the installation of the GPS IFR? Can I keep the database current (every 28 days)?

[2] Adding a second Nav Com to the panel can round out most of the remaining requirements.

Overall your panel is probably IFR as promised to you, but at what level do you want it to be at?

 

[N6784N]

Quote: carusoam

Apparently IFR comes in different levels, basic or minimum all the way up to GPS driven synthetic vision that can land a 747 by itself.

Were you planning on using your plane for your own IFR training?

typical things that you may find with an IFR installation of a GPS:

[1] Does GPS drive the VOR head?  When it does, does it have an indicator (little blue light) that tells the pilot that GPS is driving the VOR head and it is not the Nav radio doing the driving?

[2] Does it have remote enunciators (Leg/OBS mode, waypoint, message, Approach arm etc.)

[3] Does it automatically check RAIM (accuracy) prior to arming the approach.  (This one eliminates most hand held units)

These may not all be required as indicated above, based on installation and proximity to the pilot's view.  These little things assure the pilot that he is following viable guidance to the ground.  Without these aids, I feel that it is too easy for me to think I have viable guidance and go to the ground unguided. 

The basics of IFR legal (for the plane).

[1] Pitot / static check.

[2] Navigation equipment required for the approach to be used.....(one VOR is a one trick poney, technically usable for approaches in combination with an "IFR" clock)

[3] I see the VOR head in your photo has Glides Slope also  (If this is working, you have a very strong two trick poney.)  Precision approach is at your service.

Having VOR and ILS approaches available with one radio can work pretty well, IF you can use your GPS to identify cross radials, intersections and "DME" distance.  GPS is a legal substitute for DME on instrument approaches.  Slant range error is pointed out in the post above.  You probably would not add DME to the plane to get a less acurate readings.

As far as using one radio to identify an intersection.  It sounds nice, but it is terribly impractical.  In the NY area, the flight plan will change early and often and it is difficult to keep up at Mooney speeds.  I still find it challenging to twist knobs on the GPS and keep up with the rapid fire environment.

It is helpful to keep up with ATC if you have something to hold your wings level while you try.  Do you have the wing leveler (PC) or any other autopilot?

Most IFR plans that I use are VOR to VOR with a couple of intersections thrown in front and back, followed by the more simple IAPs of VOR, ILS and GPS (some still may require ADF or DME to identify intermediate waypoints if the GPS is not legal)

I am a recent IFR graduate.  I used a plane with two Navcoms, one with glide slope, and an IFR GPS.  The instructors pressed to use the VOR / ILS for everything and GPS for distance.  Very little time was spent teaching GPS approaches.  If you can execute the VOR and ILS in the traditional method, GPS approaches don't take much additional time.

I would be looking for the following:

[1] Is the installation of the GPS IFR? Can I keep the database current (every 28 days)?

[2] Adding a second Nav Com to the panel can round out most of the remaining requirements.

Overall your panel is probably IFR as promised to you, but at what level do you want it to be at?

 

[Cruiser]

did you look here? http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/Chap1/aim0101.html

there has been a lengthy discussion on the AOPA board about use of handheld GPS for enroute IFR, there may be some information there that would be useful to you.

Your GPS is certified for enroute IFR. It cannot be used for approaches. It can be substituted for DME and ADF if it meets the requirements as you point out.

[carusoam]

Aim - 1-1-19 GPS  http://www.fltplan.com/AIM.htm  (air navigation aids)

I wrote this at the same time as Cruiser, it is probably the same reference....

[N6784N]

I talked to a "fast" team member  and he explained everrything to me about using the IFR (enroute/terminal) GPS and here is what he explained to me. We can use a IFR GPS in the terminal area to identify LOM's, NDB's. and any other waypoint that is listed in the AFD and on the approach plate that you will be using. you can also use the GPS for DME information. if you are flying a ILS and the missed approach is holding at a NDB you can still fly that approach, if you go missed then input the NDB into the GPS and fly the missed. ofcourse really the only thing you can not do with the GPS is a actual GPS approach. The GPS as long as your not doing GPS appraoch does not have to be updated every 28 days as long as you verify that the waypoints you will be using for the approach with the AFD before flight. you can find this information in the aim section 1-2-3 other then the out of date criteria but he is still loking for that information.

[craigsteffen]

[my background: I'm a fairly new pilot, private 2007, instrument this September, total 130-odd flying hours.  Anything I know is from my instruction, my very little flying, and the very large amount I've read over my lifetime about airplanes and flying.  So take my opinions with a grain of salt.]

Quote: N6784N

This whole conversation started when I had a flight instructor in my plane and he said it wasn't legally IFR certified because I only had 1 vor head in the plane but I believe the only time that issue can arise is if I file a flight plan to a airport that is forecast to be IFR 1 hour before and 1 hour after time of arrival then if I file to my alternate and it is forcast the same I would need a different type of approach nav system in the plane like a ADF or IFR/waas GPS. Does anybody have any written far lwas on this?

[mooney231]

The question is can you do that legally with one VOR receiver.  The correct answer in the test is yes.  Now personally, I wouldn't want to for any critical intersection. 

[craigsteffen]

Quote: mooney231

Take a look under the "Kinds of Operations" heading in Section 2 of your AFM.  This should define what operations the aircraft is certified for, ie. "Day and Night VFR and IFR."

[scottfromiowa]

This is where the equipment list, weight and balance, STC's recide.  Supposed to stay in the aircraft along with the pilot operating handbook specific to year make/model.  Logs DON'T have to be in the plane...and shouldn't in my opinion as loss of your logs severly de-values your aircraft.

[craigsteffen]

(subscribing myself to updates)

[craigsteffen]

Quote: scottfromiowa

This is where the equipment list, weight and balance, STC's recide.  Supposed to stay in the aircraft along with the pilot operating handbook specific to year make/model.  Logs DON'T have to be in the plane...and shouldn't in my opinion as loss of your logs severly de-values your aircraft.

[mooney231]

Quote: craigsteffen

"Aircraft Flight Manual"?  Is that the same as the "Pilot's Operating Handbook"? 

I know that I've seen it implied in the regs that there's supposed to be a single, official manual that goes with every individual airplane and is kept updated.  However, most of the airplanes I've flown, rental and flying clubs, don't have one because any manual gets lost frequently.  They generally have one that's close to the model of airplane that it is and that's it.

Also...when did those rules go into effect?  Were they in effect, say, in 1968?  (I'm interested in a 1967 or 68 M-20F.)  And particularly given the latest news from the Mooney factory, would it be possible at all to get an updated manual, particularly for one of the older planes?

Mooney231, I'm not trying to shoot what you said down.  I agree with you, but every time I ask about such manuals, most people don't know what I'm talking about.

[craigsteffen]

Quote: mooney231

 In short, if the aircraft was manufacturered after March 1, 1979, the AFM is a required document and must be on board any time you operate the aircraft.

[mooney231]

Quote: craigsteffen

Ah!  That explains it.  I don't think I've ever flown anything that new-fangled.  :-D  All of my club planes are 1970-ish or older. 

How are they packaged?  Are they a skinny half-width document that fits in the glove box?

[craigsteffen]

Quote: mooney231

Many manufacturers interchange these terms by calling their manual a "POH" and inserting all of the AFM material in that document.  In short, if the aircraft was manufacturered after March 1, 1979, the AFM is a required document and must be on board any time you operate the aircraft.

[mooney231]

Quote: craigsteffen

I have to say that I'm rather annoyed that none of my instructors ever even mentioned this.  And I don't remember seeing any questions about that in the written for either the private or instrument.

There are lots of secondary details that my instructors didn't tell me but I picked up on my own.  This is a new one on me, though.  And given the number of groups of letters in your signature that end in "I" I'm going to assume that you're right.  

[craigsteffen]

Quote: mooney231

Required documents is one of the first things I teach on the first preflight.  I teach my students the ARROW acronym to remember which documents are required to be carried on board:

Airworthiness Certificate

Registration Certificate

Radio Operating Permit (international)

Operating Limitations (POH/AFM)

Weight and Balance information

 

[craigsteffen]

Quote: mooney231

To answer your last question, yes.  Certification of aircraft for Day/Night VFR and/or IFR is usually also displayed in the form of  a placard.  Check AFM Section 2 Limitations to see if there is such a placard.  If it's in the AFM, then it is required to be installed in the cockpit in whatever location is stated in the AFM.

[Hank]

In the right seat back pocket, I keep the following items:

• 
  
• Owner's Manual
  
• Autopilot supplement
  
• Alternate vacuum supplement
  
• G430W quick reference booklet
  
• G430W fat book
  
• airsickness bags
  
• plotter
  
• most recent Weight and Balance
  

Us vintage drivers don't have anything fancy like a POH or AFM, just the little bitty, thin Owner's Manual. Mine is less than 100 pages, and virtually useless as far as the Emergency section goes.

[jlunseth]

Quote: Cruiser

Even though a GPS is certified (by the manufacturer) for enroute IFR use, it must be installed to meet IFR requirements including location (viewed by the pilot) etc. IF the unit was not checked and/or does not meet the installation requirements it cannot be used for IFR even if the "unit" is certified to IFR standards. 

[M016576]

The individual POH per aircraft is required for each airframe post 1978 (or so the FAR/AIM handbook states... I saw that the actual FAR was posted here already).  If you lose it, Mooney can send you a new, recertified manual complete with whatever weight and balance/equipment your individual aircraft left the factory floor with (they have these records... I know, I've partaken of the service for my '80 M20J!).  Cost for the new manual is about $150, although I'm wondering if they can still issue these with the downsizing and all. 

   For those that are curious, it's about 150 pages, including an overview section, systems section, normal procedures, emergency procedures, weight and balance (specific to that individual airplane) and a section for additional equipment.  The manual is very similar to the NATOPS manuals I use in the Navy for the F-18 in both layout and wording.  I keep it behind the pilots seat and it never leaves the aircraft.  I bought a second POH for a 1980 M20J that isn't airframe specific (ie it is the exact same manual, but doesn't include the weight and balance or special equipment sections).  I keep that at home for systems questions when I have them (it only cost 10 bucks on e-bay).  I also purchased one of the "surecheck" checklists and use that as a "pocket check list" which comes with me when I get to my destination, and also stays strapped to my kneeboard (just in case... hey... they don't call me JoB for nothing!).  Of course, memorized procedures are a mandatory, as well... if they aren't memorized, you might just have the rest of your life to study them....

-JoB