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OK! For the OP, Fred2O, here is the drag polar for the M20J, derived from the data in the 1220G POH (which was applicable to our Mooney, a 1977 M20J): Each one of the little "+" symbols is a line in the POH cruise data. For this POH, the best fit to the aggregate data is from the 6000' best power cruise data at 2740 lb GW, and the pink "+"s are from that particular data set. So the zero-lift drag coefficient is .01654, and the best-fit straight line above gives CD = .01654 +.082 CL2 Pretty close to what Skip wrote... that Mooney provided the clean polar as CD = 0.0164 + 0.072CL2 It took a LONG time to enter all that data into Benchmark.....but it could be done for the other models from the POH data. The M20J data are really good though. Curt Lopresti told me during a conversation once about how his dad was so proud of the torque meter they had installed for direct measurement of installed power for the M20J certification, and of course the other two secret weapons were legendary flight test engineers Fen and Dorothy Taylor. So to overcome drag, you need thrust. How much? Using the data set above and about 75% best power cruise, here is what is happening at the prop: Lots of eye candy here. 6000 feet, 75% best power cruise, 150 hp into the prop, 131.2 comes out due to prop efficiency. Even the old McCauley C212 is pretty good at about 87.5% efficiency. To describe this to jet jocks, the M20 goes ~163 knots on ~262 pounds of thrust. This translates to the airplane speed chart for these conditions, here: Cool stuff. Hope you guys like it.

Jennifer, I told you to stay off my airplane forums! I know it’s you, mooneyspacers don’t rat out other mooneyspacers spending habits! (Sorry guys, I think 40-0Flight might be my wife, she’s obviously trying to find out where my daughter college fund is going!)

I had about a 30 minute drive home from the airport after each flight during my PPL. The first thing I did when I got in the car was call my dad to talk about the flight on the drive home. It was great to share that experience with him, and I got to hear a lot more stories of his Air Force flying days that I had never heard before. It was truly a blessing.

I'm pretty sure if you keep throwing money at the problem... the money will go away

Q: How much $$$ does this lovely addiction cost? A: All of it.

You really, really, really need to change your approach. This is a game for poets, not accountants! (Sorry @Danb.)

Unfortunately, you've asked the one question that we've all sworn never to answer.

A lot of good advice and personal guidelines/rules have been listed above. My instructor and I were talking about night flying and he made a remark that will stick with me forever. “In a single that has an engine out at night you have 2 options. Turn on your landing light and if you don’t like what you see then turn it off.” So a little background about me. I work offshore in the oilfield in middle management for the largest oilfield service company in the world(if you’re curious just google it. Colors are blue and white.). I’m on a facility that is owned by a big oil producer that had a big spill several years back when a rig had a blowout and caught fire. That being said, we don’t do any task without a permit to work and a task risk assessment and risk mitigation plan. My plan is to treat flying the same way. Assess the risks and mitigate what can be and if the risk is still too great then it’s no wheels up for this guy until the residual risk is acceptable.

I couldn't agree more with you Bobby, I DON'T calculate the cost involved to fly, flying for 35+ years it'd be to depressing, fly have fun and if your checkbook gets low slow down or get out. My goal is to fly as long as I can. Then sell the bucket of bolts and enjoy the proceeds.

If you're looking for a number to keep you out of trouble, plan on a flat $30K per year total for O&M with about 150 hours of flight time. For one of the younger airplanes you'll exceed that, for one of the classic airplanes you could stay well below it, but that number will ensure you always have enough from year to year, as long as you bank what you don't spend on the good years. The details just get too tedious and the variables are way unpredictable. It's working for me! Cheers, Rick

So when it comes to small airplanes....we live in Cuba.

If you want to make a spreadsheet because it's something you enjoy doing that's one thing but trying to make an accurate tool for calculating what it costs to own an airplane I think is futile. Yes you can factor fixed costs like insurance storage fuel and such but one annual can blow all the data out the window. Example, my first annual ended up being more than 50% the purchase price. Thankfully there was nothing that could not be repaired but a lot of things that sadly were not addressed by the previous owner. Totally my fault as I did not do a pre buy inspection. Another example is a C model that was probably one of the nicest and well maintained example in the fleet and shortly after it was purchased suffered a gear colaps that totaled the airplane. I never considered the costs It was something I wanted to do so dove right in. I purchased an older Cessna 150 before my first lesson and flew it for a few years before we bought our Mooney. The 150 was not only a great plane to learn how to fly but it was also a great classroom on what is involved with ownership. Dont overthink it, if it's what you want to do find a way and dive in the waters fine.

But if you throw enough money at it there is the possibility of weighing it down so that it can't move...

I used guardian , it has a fan stacked in the back , an the cdi is connected to the the 2nd radio independent of the avidyne and aspen hsi just under the la ding gear switch. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Here is my 1970 M20E Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Intelligent marketing strategies sell machines... Nothing clever about it. The sales prevention team seams to be awfully strong today... Problems? What problems? Businesses have challenges... One of the strongest sales techniques... Get a ride in a Mooney... MSers come in two categories.... Speed and efficiency.... Speed... The difference... one of them can buy a set of cylinders at a discount.... the other is going to use the same cylinders all the way to TBO... Get a ride in a Screamin’ Eagle, or Standing O... off the ground in 800’ climbing out with the VSI pegged at the top of the instrument.... Climb quickly into the smooth air above... Do a long Xcountry demonstrating the best fuel mileage available... Adjust a few knobs, you are now demonstrating the fastest factory built, NA plane, on or off the planet.... No O2 required... For the ultimate Mooney ride... get the 310hp Acclaim, in 10 minutes from T/O, you are climbing through the FLs... cruising the entire East Coast in a day... just business as usual... would you like AC with that? Mike, my favorite local NJMP CFII/MSer.... flew a Screamin’ Eagle... He may have had a few other jobs as well.... PP thoughts only, my glass may be half full at most times.... Best regards, -a-

and back at cold home base: Panel is basic, but functional: (older photo, but it's still pretty much the same minus the 396 yoke attachment and replaced the king radio with buddy's digital alternative that he had on the shelf when knob broke, but after fixing knob may go back to king since it's more reliable)

Exactly. Now stay away if they start saying JMU. Those are big.

Well since you are new to the site (3 posts), I guess you know how it all works and are comfortable mouthing off to one of the most knowledgeable and helpful Mooney Space members. Notice that Mr. Caruso has nearly 22K posts. If you think that post was berating, you may want to stay off the internet. And to be clear, you did not ask if the original poster, of a two year old thread, if they had any other switches. You asked and I quote: There is a difference between "the" switches and "any other" switches for sale.

About $1,000/mo for 100/hrs/yr, but I'll never put that in writing....oops! Where's the "delete" button?

well, as someone who would not be alive right now had it been night time when my engine failed, I do not recommend it. It is not like engine failures in SE aircraft do not happen.... in fact they happen quite frequently. In 4500 hours I have experienced 4 engine failures in flight, 2 in turbine aircraft, one resulting in an off field landing/crash. In the 2 cases where there was a second engine, I was damned glad to have it. Yea, a lot of multi pilots die because they cant control the aircraft on a single engine...that is usually the failing of the pilot, not the aircraft. Ones ability to get the aircraft on the ground safely deadstick at night is drastically reduced compared to daytime. I don't care how good you are.

I have a theory as to why there are derelict airplanes rotting on ramps everywhere...they were purchased by owners that failed to realize they need to be financially able to spend $15K - $25K every year to actually maintain and fly them.

My intention was to build a tool be used. It seems in the wrong hands I've created a weapon to be feared.

Make your best guesstimate, then double it

I used to be on facebook. I used to post pictures of my family and dog, and activities on facebook, and my friends would hit like. And I would hit like for them too. In recent years facebook turned darker and everything became politics. I mean I enjoy the political debate at a BBQ as much as the next guy, including people with opposing opinions. Somehow friends of friends getting onto my facebook page and putting threatening and sexually suggestive threats statements about my children on fb sort of soured it for me. Yes I didn't have adequately strong settings to prevent third parties...which I did later, but somehow I noticed people became keyboard warriors forgetting they were speaking to other people, trying out their experimentally extreme rants online they would never say in person. I have closed my fb page middle of last year. So did my wife. This is the only forum I am involved in - and I feel like I gain a lot of aeronautical and equipment knowledge from all of you good people. Including people with opposite political views. I don't care what your politics are, but as the great Timothy thread of the past proved, once we go political, the aviation stops working. It is not like discussing politics at a BBQ when we do it on the internet. It escalates in a way that real life face to face conversations don't as easily. There are plenty of politics friendly discussion forums, but for the sake of preserving an aviation forum to speak about aviation, I think it is critical we keep it sterile, meaning stay away from politics absolutely and completely since a little leads to a lot and a lot WILL kill the forum. I for one will no longer participate if that happens. And I too of course have opinions but for the sake of following what I believe we must to preserve this aviation community, lets not. I don't care to hear your opinions, and I will not share mine with you on here. Come to Potsdam and share a beer with me at my house and we can either agree or disagree politics, whatever the case may be, but on here, it just does not work. So lets not. Please.

I replied to a thread a few months ago on aircraft ownership with: This is my sixth plane in 30+ years of ownwership. Two Cessna's, two Piper's, and two Mooney's (two J's). In reading the replies, there are two types of owners, one will keep meticulous records and the other just keeps paying (and affords) the bills. I like to work on my planes so that helps keep maintenance costs down. That will be my only comment on actual costs. I stopped keeping records 25+ years ago, so my wife wouldn't see. Now, as people find, the plane and expenses become part of the family, good memories, and budget. As bonal said: "Don’t overthink it, if it's what you want to do find a way and dive in the waters fine."

No one has mentioned one of the MAJOR problems for Mooney and the REST of the classic GA fleet (e.g. Beech products and Cessna products included) is it is very very hard for a $750K Acclaim to compete with a decked out 30 or 40 year old Mooney M20chooseyourfavoritestyle in pristine condition with looks-like-new paint and leather interior that frankly can be as good or better than the new stuff coming off the line, and with whatever avionics you want to install. My airplane looks, smells and feels like new, especially to non-aviation people who can't identify the year of a M20K at a glance by the shape of the passenger windows - which really is a triviality. Airplanes just don't decay like cars do, for several reasons, involving the annual rebuild-as-you go concept of airplane maintenance, and also the fact that they do not salt the airplane runway environment. Yes airplanes do rot, and many do - but there is a big enough fleet of either super airplanes, or close enough that they can be restored that this makes a VERY difficult environment for a classic airplane company to compete in. Even if I did have $750k today to spend on an airplane, which I don't, but if I did, I would not be buying a new Cirrus, or Mooney. I would find some pristine but used example of something that has a Pt6 on the nose. Is that close to used TBM700 territory? Or PA46? And if I had $3M or $4M I would not be buying a new TBM930. Never mind - that is the end of the line for single pilot operations - yes maybe I would be buying a TBM930. Those $10M jets seem like they are for the professional crew of two category - so I will spend my (pretend) $4M on a new TBM930 - but only if I were so filthy-stinkin' rich that I didn't care what the price - that I could have a fantastic TBM900 for half the price, or an 830 for less than that since a 10 year old 830 is fantastic. Anyway back to the topic - the classic airplane builders need to compete against their own huge saturation sized stock of 60-70 years worth of flying models to fit every budget and level of sophistication.

Risk mitigation is not the removal of risk, but a diligent effort to identify risk as well reduce the likelihood and impact prior to its occurrence. So your statements are 100% true, and your experience is a great basis expecting the unexpected. I don't feel it negates the value of a little planning and estimating. But that is just my 2c.

Since we’re picking nits. Both Lycoming and Continental typically have remarkably consistent airflow from cylinder to cylinder. The issue more often than not is the log runner intake manifolds (Continental) that supply air to each bank of cylinders. Fuel from the first cylinder in the bank migrates backwards into the manifold when the intake valve closes. That means the air moving to the next cylinder gets a little fuel from the first cylinder in the bank. The last cylinder is getting a little fuel from the both the first and second. Therefore Continentals tend to get richer from first to last cylinder on each bank. GAMI solves this by reducing injector flow from first to last. Most injected, NA Lycoming with the tuned intakes do not require GAMIs. I’ve heard that there are stock Lyc IO360s that don’t run well LOP but I’ve never met one. My A1A has stock injectors and will run smooth well past 100LOP. This is not an exception with these engines but more the rule.

With Cirrus SR series at 380 sold and the Icon A5 selling 44, Mooney needs to look long and hard at their production and marketing techniques if they want to produce/sell more aircraft. Strong marketing sells an amphibious flying jet ski for big bucks. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have one too but for fun, not for traveling around the country. I’d be willing to bet there are a few A5 owners that also have a Cirrus as both are doing a great job selling their product and reaching outside the normal airplane publications to draw new people in.

Well I finally bit the bullet and started my ppl training. It’s always been a dream of mine to fly. My oldest son, 17, decided he wants to be a professional pilot and bought and paid for his own ground school and started taking instruction. The swmbo went and bought me the ground school from Sporty’s and I blazed through it in about a week. Well yesterday I had my first official, logged, time at the controls and I’m hoping to have everything completed within the next few months. I reside in northeastern Oklahoma and our home airport would be GMJ. After having our old house in southern Louisiana on the market we finally have a contract and should be closing within the next couple weeks. That being said I have also received a promotion, +15k a year, and a payplan restructuring, an additional 10k per year, within the last 3 months so things are definitely on the good side. Ever since I had an interest in GA i have been drawn to Mooneys. The swmbo has all but given the blessing for me to get an a/c and the first thing that came to mind was of course a Mooney. The sad part? I’ve never even seen one in person. When the time comes, I definitely won’t be rushing this, my realistic acquisition budget would be right around $100k and based on my mission I am leaning towards the F models. For a family trip it would be myself, 230#, the wife, 140#, oldest son, 200#, and youngest son, currently 120#. These are conservative numbers to err on the side of caution. Trip range would average 200-700ish nm. We would travel from NE Oklahoma to south Texas, Virginia, Florida on the regular and of course we’d find excuses to go elsewhere. I would also be plenty ok with having to make a fuel stop as we do not want to make the swmbo angry. I would love to find someone in the NE Oklahoma, NW Arkansas, SW Missouri or SE Kansas area that wouldn’t mind giving me the nickel tour or even a day or few hours in the air. Fortunately, my work schedule means I have half the year off and when I’m home My schedule is pretty flexible thanks in advance, Paul

@carusoam, having first and secondhand knowledge of that failure plus many other less serious ones, every indication was there for someone to call an all stop. The oilfield is very similar to aviation in that all of our safety rules are written in blood and all of our standard work instructions were preceded by shortcuts or human factors. Time is definitely money. Non productive time on some of the facilities can be $80k an hour! My facility is a combo drilling/production that was accidentally ESD’d last time I was out there and resulted in hard shut ins that took approximately 36 hours to get everything back to where it was. We produce about 80,000 barrels of oil and roughly 19 million cubic feet of gas per day. The guy that caused the shut down kept his job and the company reiterated that we’re all human and make mistakes but so long as we learn from ours and others then that’s all they can ask of us. Smart people learn from their mistakes. Brilliant people learn from the mistakes of others.

Thank you @Marauder You touched on the core point to my original post. Purchasing a plane is a large financial commitment. 100% agree, IF you have the finances to just throw money at it until it goes away, or just fly now and the money will sort itself out. Then YES, that is exactly how I would encourage anyone to approach it. BUT: Few have that luxury... even if they do, over buy on the plane and I'm pretty sure there is a plane out there capable of drying up Anyone's disposable income! Be it a piece of land, a new house, or a new wife. You don't get into a large commitment if you don't have SOME idea what you're getting into. My goal is to just build a tool for those people to see the picture a little clearer as it pertains to their situation. It is too easy for an outsider like myself, who hasn't been flying and adjusting to the costs for 35+ years to just look at a $65k M20C and go.. Yeah.. i can make that payment... My Doctor buddy said fuel is "cheap" for these... I got this! After the enjoyable experience of reading through many of these mostly humorous posts.. I would say NO, this tool is not for the current owner, the married, or the faint of heart. But for the New potential owner, wanting to join the General Aviation community... Maybe it will help.. Maybe it will allow more people to join GA successfully with finances remaining to enjoy it. Be it a 1965 Cessna 152, or a 1986 M20K full of glass. I appreciate everyone's input for sure!

I’ll respectfully disagree with a detail here but not the intent. The air/fuel imbalances are not cylinder dependent. Each cylinder has exactly the same bore and stroke and hence a very equal draw of air - all things equal. They also have a predictable fuel pattern flow past the injector. It is the differences in the intake manifold length, turbulences within, and pressure timing as the intake valve opens that the folks at GAMI correct for by precisely adjusting fuel flow. This is why they don’t care anything about the cylinders you have installed when they send you the first set (which in my experience often is right-on for non turbo engines). They base the first set on years of data from the various engines they support. A cylinder change, unless it corrected for an unknown intake leak should not adversely affect the original fuel distribution spread. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I did a total rebuild on my panel including an I pad , I should have used a bigger iPad instead of the mini Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know we had this discussion a while back. Don Kaye chimed in that his Bravo annual costs were around 30 AMU. I think it is a healthy read for the owner wannabes that owning an airplane is a financial commitment. It is easy to get enamored with ownership, not so much when you are staring at a 6 AMU annual inspection bill. Those who don't look at the costs obviously have the financial means not to do so. It is a disservice to a potential owner to give the impression that owning a plane doesn't come with many financial strings. Looking back at all those threads where new owners were coping at unexpected costs that should have been expected, should be the reality check.

@AlexLev that’s quite the timer setup!

OMG!! I read the first couple of posts last night, and thought it ight be safe to check in now. Is this thread full of numbers? If so, I don't want to read it . . . Fixed costs: Annual Hangar / tie down Flight reviews Pitot static tests GPS data (for your particular instrument) Operating Costs Fuel Oil Oil changes Batteries Tires Overnight fees away from home Spark plug changes Magneto overhauls Engine overhaul Variable Expenses Repairs for things that break Repairs formthungs that wear out Instrument replacement / upgrades Interior work Paint "Dressing up" the plane Everything else . . . . Fixed Expenses will vary by your location; Operating Expenses will vary by aircraft type & model, how you fly and how often; Variable Expenses are controlled directly by the desires of the Owner. If you ever add them up, please don't post them where I will accidentally see the answers . . . . .

Where did the enjoyment and fun go? I have worked in factories for decades... some completely automated, some completely hand assembled parts and machines... My first factory I saw was rows of lathes and men turning out a lot of near perfect, but not perfect Teflon parts...similar to a college I visited as a kid... Mechanical engineers really loved 1940s left over lathes.... ? When I visited the same factory about five years later... there were a few CNC machines in place of those 30 people... turning out perfect copies... automation on every level is expected for a company to survive... Early on, my dad called me from I giant outdoor fair, the topsfield fair in Mass... he told me about the Cirrus that was on display... amongst the great mass of people, not pilots... not at an airport... dad hadn’t seen a GA plane like that... he probably had an AT&T portable bag phone... At the peak of my career, I was selling Million dollar machines, to various types of people... you never know who has a Million to spend on any one machine... It really helps to know your machine, and your customer, and everything else that goes with that... our brochures were terrible... they talked about metals, and controls... Great if your customers are machine builders... our customers were machine users... not a single picture of all the product that was made on our machines... or how many of these products were made each minute... My favorite customers flew their corporate planes... a Citation, a jet commander, and a Mooney... Now if you want to have some fun... You have a whole second page of AOPA magazine... you are the marketing guy... you have two planes... what are YOU going to put on that page..? You get 12 different times a year to take a whack at this challenge... what would be in the pictures of those 12 different layouts... The least important part of the message is your mailing address... Speed, efficiency and safety are what you are known for already... Bonal has covered what MSers are known to do in the today’s flight thread... Jan: Where did you take your Long Body skiing (the pilot is a pro, a 737 in the back ground) February: Where did you take your long body to get away from the cold (the pilot is an engineer, with snowboards in the back) March: There’s some Madness thing going on around here... a shot of the flight plan on the instrument panel and a basketball arena in the background... (the pilots... a couple of highly paid CFIs sharing expenses) April: Easter with the family, load up the back seats... and baggage compartment to the gills... (the pilot... a family woman with her man flying right seat...and kids all dressed up for the holiday dinner) May: Who’s flying to Indy? With your business suit slung over your back... and an M20C in the background... June: How about some F1 in Montréal? A single seat, Mite next to the LB... July: Flying over a beach in NJ... on the way to Greenland, Iceland, Ireland... to visit MSers in Europe... a Pic of the G1000 screen with a Mooney in the middle of the big isles.... August: Maine has some great outdoors and lobster... next to a turf field... September: Dispell a Mooney Myth... in California... how big people actually fly Mooneys... October: Show Some Mooney performance... in Kansas... with women owned and flown machines... November: Anyone deep fry a Turkey at a Mooney Fly-in? Where is Bryan, Mexico? December: How about a Long Body, fully loaded, flying to see grandma and pa? Or Grandma flying Grandpa to see their grandchildren... I know an MSer... Jan 2020... a picture taken around the San Juan Islands... Big fat Orcas playing in the sea... next to a picture of a Clorox bottle nosed plane with a similar black and white paint scheme... somebody caught one in the T/O attitude... Nice tail? Note the similarities... ... ... Style by Nature... Discuss your lifestyle, your hardware, how you use your Mooney... Skip how the plane is made... nobody cares... they expect you to design it right. Build it right. Deliver it as promised with the highest level of quality... the important stuff to pilots... Now, back to being pilots... let the manufacturing guys do their thing... let the current owners keep going on... The most important thing would be having all the current owners say something nice about the company, the product, the service, the lifestyle... of a Mooney Pilot! Who would want to join this owner’s club if every thread was a long drawn out complaint... Fortunately, most threads around here are much more enjoyable to read... Marketing and sales for million dollar machines is an enjoyable job... trade shows are a blast... somebody has to work really hard to get those machines there and set-up properly... Help me Plan to break some stereotypes... I probably have a few accidently in my list... like old machines, i’m happy to be Imperfect... Best regards, -a-

My accountant taught me about the three "F"'s..... If it Flys, Floats or Fornicates it's better to rent it

I only ride TI frames due to carbon being way way to flexy for my er um profile. I broke an early trek mtn bike frame due to flex. don't want to have that happen in the air. I build a stitch and glue kayak that is plywood with e glass over it. It is very very strong. But I guess that would be going backwards in the Mooney history.

The airplane cost numbers are too big and confusing for me. Never ask never tell.

Spreadsheets and planes do not mix. Info could fall into enemy hands. I’d probably get to keep the plane but sleeping in it with the dog would be tight.

Robots are now quite commonly used in airframe and wing assembly. Check out Boeing's Panel Assembly Line and Fuselage Automated Upright Build gadgets. The planes they work on have not been redesigned - the tech has been built up to fit the existing certified design.

Petroleum Service Company. Phillips 20w-50XC, $54.94/case. I used to buy from them and order two cases because shipping for two cases was the same cost as shipping one case. Came out to something like $135 for two cases including shipping. That's shipping from PA to the west coast (WA). Might be cheaper for those on the east coast. I now buy from a local distributor for about $56/case including tax.

Just thinking out loud. Totally unlikely and way too expensive to consider someone actually doing but: wouldn't a wing replacement STC be cool? Along the lines of sabrecowl, a full carbon fiber wing replacement. Lighter, stronger, more durable, corrosion resistant and more aerodynamic. Easy (right), Just build up an identical wing, all the same spars, in carbon fiber but perhaps properly thickened or whatever appropriate for the material, designed in cad, and then cover in smooth carbon sheets. Easy. Said a guy who knows little to nothing about carbon fiber work. Then just "pop off" the old wing and pop on the new one. Sounds expensive.