69 M20E vs 65-66

[DaV8or]

Ok, everyone seems to think that the 65-66 M20s are the sweet spot for pre J Mooneys, but how much worse is a '69? There is one for sale right now that I'm pretty excited about and I'm wondering what down sides it has. I haven't gotten my Mooney book yet, but it's on the way. I'll definately read up on it when I get it. I was just wondering if there are any owners here of '69s or there abouts that can comment from experience. Are they a little worse or is it an OWT?

[scottfromiowa]

Article on Pre-J Mooney's from "Consumer Aviation's Guide to Used Aircraft" said that Butler built airplanes varied greatly in quality due to cost cutting and economic measures (I'm paraphrasing) taken with the purchase.  The more extensive zinc Chromate (anti-corosion) process was eliminated in some areas and the flush rivets on wing/retractable step changes to fixed step...all took place after '67 with Butler aircraft in late 60's...Every plane is different.  Some were considerably slower than earlier NON-Butler built aircraft.  Inspect, fly to check rigging and speed.  Some had the weird "stinger" on top of vertical stab.

Scott

[mjc]

My understanding is that most of the 1969 models were actually built under the ownership of American Electronics Labs, and the quality of them (mine included) is quite good. They did eliminate some of the flush rivets, but differences in rigging and mods between planes make it hard for me to know if my airplane is much slower than earlier models. Butler came on the scene later. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mooney_Airplane_Company for details.

To my mind, the big differences you'll find in the 1969 models are the instrument panel (see my gallery pic), standard electric gear and flaps, and split/removable rear seats (though 68s may have had those, too). My airplane does have the zone chromate treatment and PC system, but the step is fixed.

I agree with Jim, though. A good 69 available when you want it is better than the 65-66 you may never find.

[rturbett]

You love 1969 E's.. You think they are the best plane ever. You should buy it right now. Dont let this one get away. You know better than to miss an opportunity like this.

This will keep you away from any 65-66 E that I may find..

 

Rob

[KLRDMD]

Quote: DaV8or

Ok, everyone seems to think that the 65-66 M20s are the sweet spot for pre J Mooneys, but how much worse is a '69? There is one for sale right now that I'm pretty excited about and I'm wondering what down sides it has. I haven't gotten my Mooney book yet, but it's on the way. I'll definately read up on it when I get it. I was just wondering if there are any owners here of '69s or there abouts that can comment from experience. Are they a little worse or is it an OWT?

[DaV8or]

Quote: JimR

That's a good point, Ken, that I hadn't thought about.  I retract my previous post.  It would have to a manual gear-equipped example if I was in the market for a pre-J. 

Jim    

[DaV8or]

Quote: rturbett

You love 1969 E's.. You think they are the best plane ever. You should buy it right now. Dont let this one get away. You know better than to miss an opportunity like this.

This will keep you away from any 65-66 E that I may find..

 

Rob

[KLRDMD]

Quote: DaV8or

[DaV8or]

Quote: KLRDMD

[KLRDMD]

Quote: DaV8or

[Parker_Woodruff]

The electric ones are all-electric.

[Ron McBride]

I have a 69 F. The gear is all electric. I personally prefer the electric.  There are AD's on the gear. Last year I had to replace the gears in the motor.  Total about $2000.00. I installed the 40:1 gear set.  I had parts in less than 5 days. My flaps are electric and I have not had any problems. My instrument panel is a standard 6 pack with full size instruments.  I have 10 holes for 3 inch instruments and 2 2 inch holes on the left side. Some older panels appear to have been installed with a shotgun and have 2 inch DG's.   Remember that you are looking at 40 year plus planes.  You can have anything you want in a Mooney, it just takes money.  As with most Mooney owners, I would be glad to show you mine.

Ron at KMPI

[Ron McBride]

I have a 69 F. The gear is all electric. I personally prefer the electric.  There are AD's on the gear. Last year I had to replace the gears in the motor.  Total about $2000.00. I installed the 40:1 gear set.  I had parts in less than 5 days. My flaps are electric and I have not had any problems. My instrument panel is a standard 6 pack with full size instruments.  I have 10 holes for 3 inch instruments and 2 2 inch holes on the left side. Some older panels appear to have been installed with a shotgun and have 2 inch DG's.   Remember that you are looking at 40 year plus planes.  You can have anything you want in a Mooney, it just takes money.  As with most Mooney owners, I would be glad to show you mine.

Ron at KMPI

[ray]

I use to own a 69E and had problems with my electric gear, It got my wifes attention when it did't come down

on a landing here in AZ. I told her no problem I'll have to hand crank it down, I ask her to take the plane I

popped the circuit breaker and put the gear down made a very soft landing. I now own a 65-66E and really like

the Man gear and flaps.

[mjc]

As I have a 69 M20C, I have the electric gear. As others have mentioned, it is electro-mechanical, no hydraulics involved. The gear on the 69 models uses a Dukes actuator with 20:1 gears that move the wheels quickly. There is an AD on it that involves essentially lubricating it every 100 hours, which means removing the belly panel. It does not have the no-back clutch spring issue. Like the others that have electric gear, mine has not been without issue. The motor had to be rebuilt in 2007. (I did have to crank the gear down, with my wife in the airplane. She was fine with it.) At that time, I opted to replace the gears with 40:1 gears that move the wheels slower but should wear less. Total cost for both was around $1600. I still like the electric gear.

[DaV8or]

Quote: ray

I use to own a 69E and had problems with my electric gear, It got my wifes attention when it did't come down

on a landing here in AZ. I told her no problem I'll have to hand crank it down, I ask her to take the plane I

popped the circuit breaker and put the gear down made a very soft landing. I now own a 65-66E and really like

the Man gear and flaps.

[ray]

No I was just saying that I had a problem with my gear that one time. On a aircraft of that vintage it should be

expected. I would still own the 69E if I would have had a place to hangar it at he time,but out here in AZ the sun

will very quickly destroy anything rubber or plastic and I don't like parking my aircraft outside. So I sold the

aircraft not knowing that one day I would be living on a res airpark. When the opportunity came up I built

my home on 27AZ and again was looking for a mooney to fly. I had not flown a mooney with man gear so one

of the pilots on eagleroost took me out and let me fly his plane a 1963C . I had a fear that i would not be able

to work the gear but after a few gear swings no problem. Also i am sure there have been a number of gear up's

with man gear or main gear folding because people did't have them locked in.

[KSMooniac]

I'm like Jim and wish I had manual gear in my J, but of course it isn't an easy option.  I had my electric gear motor fail on approach, and the resulting hand-crank op was uneventful, fortunately.  I just had to deposit 1 AMU to continue using it.    On balance, manual vs. electric gear would way down on my list of must-haves.  I would much rather have a standard 6-pack panel, Garmin 530W or 430W (or both), autopilot, etc. more than either gear system.

As far as gear systems go, it really doesn't get much simpler than a Mooney IMO.  Manual Johnson bar is the simplest of course, but the electro-mechanical one isn't that bad if you compare to some other planes, especially Cessnas.  The gear motor, gears, limit switches, donuts, etc. are all potential wear items that need to be checked, but at least we don't have a finicky hydraulic system in addition to all of that.  I would place much more priority on the overall condition of your candidate planes and other features like the instrument layout and panel and any other nice upgrades.

[scottfromiowa]

The years 1969-1973 were trying times for Mooney.  Butler Aviation intended to integrate the fast Mooney's into a line with even faster Aero-star twins.  It didn't work out, but Butler produced Mooney's with strange beak or bullet protubernces sticking forward from the top of the vertical stabilizer.  Production ceased in 1971 and did NOT resume until late 1973 when Republic Steel bought the line.  Taken from buying and owning your own airplane second edition James E. Ellis.

[DaV8or]

Quote: KSMooniac

On balance, manual vs. electric gear would way down on my list of must-haves.  I would much rather have a standard 6-pack panel, Garmin 530W or 430W (or both), autopilot, etc. more than either gear system.

I would place much more priority on the overall condition of your candidate planes and other features like the instrument layout and panel and any other nice upgrades.

[DaV8or]

Quote: scottfromiowa

The years 1969-1973 were trying times for Mooney.

[KSMooniac]

'65-'66 and '77-mid-'80's were relatively booming times with lots of airplanes delivered.  As far as J's go, my early model J isn't as "perfect" as some of the ones made in '78 and later as I think they got better with the metal work, cowl fit, etc. as they got experience.  I'm not sure if a similar observation could be made with the '64-'66 range, though.  I'm not sure "cheap and sloppy" is a fair characterization of the Butler planes...they should be just as stout and safe, but not primed as much inside so you'll need to watch for corrosion. 

Regarding your candidate '69, if it has most everything you want and is in great overall condition (ie great MX history, no corrosion/damage, etc.) I would not let the manual vs. electric gear be a show-stopper, but that is just me.  If it has the slanted 6-pack arrangement, that is way better than the shotgun, but not quite as nice as the now standard 6-pack.  Certainly passable for IFR work IMO.  Of all the mods that can be done, making a new panel might return the most of the investment, especially if you're able and willing to assist with the work.  If it has IFR GPS, autopilot, engine monitor, etc. then just re-arranging everything starting with a new blank panel can be quite rewarding, although a lot of labor.

If you haven't already, you should get Jimmy Garrison's latest evaluation tool from the MAPA Log for the pre-J planes, and start making spreadsheets of candidate planes.  He breaks it down nicely by year, time, equipment, condition, etc. and you can see the difference between a '69 and a '66 easily. 

You very likely won't find a perfect plane that has every single mod you want unless you're willing to wait for years and years...once an owner gets such a plane, they are very likely to hang on to it!  Set a realistic target and budget (as you have done) and try to get as much of your final plane up-front in a reasonable time frame, and then do what you need to make it yours and perfect.  I'd value overall condition and maintenance history first (regular use & maintenance, no damage, fuel tank status etc.), followed by panel upgrades (IFR GPS and autopilot being the biggest items), then engine times and finally cosmetics.  Total time on a Mooney doesn't bother me one bit, so long as it was maintained.  Jim and Parker have high-time airframes and they're doing just fine!  Interior renewal can be done very effectively with a lot of sweat equity, and of course you can pick colors and materials.  Ditto for paint, except it is not easy for an owner to assist with that.  Fuel tank rehab, if necessary, is difficult and/or expensive.  Try to get one with absolutely no leaks/seeps, and preferably a recent reseal (last 5 years +/-) from a major Mooney shop. 

My story quickly...I was looking for nice modded E or F originally, but my J became available locally albeit at +$20k over my intial budget.  It of course had most all of the mods that I would have wished-for an a pre-J, plus way more panel than I hoped to end up with, along with new glass and interior.  I got a bigger/longer loan to reach out and get it and am quite happy.  It had 2 owners, steady use and maintenance, plus all of those upgrades.  I've flown it quite a bit and not had any unscheduled down-time due to issues in more than 400 hours of use over the last 3 years.  I had to get the tanks fixed, though, but I knew going in that was coming sooner or later.  I got it painted last year, and now it is fully MINE!    Paying more up-front for "more" plane has allowed me to fly it much more than pulling it down for windows, interior, panel work, etc. over my ownership period, so that was a positive trade for me.  If I couldn't have done that, I'm sure I would be happy get a pre-J for less too and improving it over the years...

[kallend]

Quote: DaV8or

Ok, everyone seems to think that the 65-66 M20s are the sweet spot for pre J Mooneys, but how much worse is a '69? There is one for sale right now that I'm pretty excited about and I'm wondering what down sides it has. I haven't gotten my Mooney book yet, but it's on the way. I'll definately read up on it when I get it. I was just wondering if there are any owners here of '69s or there abouts that can comment from experience. Are they a little worse or is it an OWT?

[KLRDMD]

Quote: kallend

[tony]

Quote: ray

I use to own a 69E and had problems with my electric gear, It got my wifes attention when it did't come down

on a landing here in AZ. I told her no problem I'll have to hand crank it down, I ask her to take the plane I

popped the circuit breaker and put the gear down made a very soft landing. I now own a 65-66E and really like

the Man gear and flaps.