Parker_Woodruff Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 I'd guess your best TAS would be at 8000' or so...maybe 9000' Would also recommend doing a 3 way GPS speed as I believe that's just as/more accurate. Also would recommend flying 40+ish degrees Lean of Peak at 8000'. Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 Oh and if you think you're slow, next time they do the 91.411,413 make sure there's not a pitot-static leak. I was wondering why my 155kt LOP at 8000' Mooney slowed to 148kts TAS and that was the culprit. Just got GPS so I know now exactly where it trues out. Quote
carusoam Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 J Brown, The most complete set of data that I have is as follows: (unfortunately, it's not very complete. We may have to keep this thread open a little longer...) Plane: '94 M20R - 280hp IO550G 7,500 msl 23" 2400 rpm 50 ROP EGT Air Temp 10 degrees C Temps: EGT / CHT 1382 / 321 1399 / 335 1423 / 326 1451 / 334 1388 / 361 1411 / 331 Speeds (Ground Speeds) N- 188 W- 176 S- 172 E- 194, average of the four cardinal directions (cancelling wind and errors in calculation) 182.5 knots. This data was collected in November near KSAT. Parker, Great panel upgrade! I would like to borrow a copy of your panel and combine it with JBrown's 310 hp for my M20R and call it --- an Ovation 3. Best regards, - anthony - Quote
docket Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 Quote: JBrown Sorry guys, got the numbers mixed between different columns while copying this. Correct engine parameters: 2550RPM/18.5 in Hg, EGT: 1590 (43 ROP), CHT 379, oil 203. Everything else is correct. Quote
carusoam Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 Quote: JBrown Carusoam: Thanks for the info. Just one little question: Are those EGT's in the 1400s really 50 ROP for y'all? If I run the EGT down in the 1400's I get nice cool cylinders just like you and docket are reporting, but the fuel flow goes up quite a bit. You happen to know what the fuel flow was at during that set? Quote
docket Posted March 24, 2010 Report Posted March 24, 2010 Quote: JBrown docket: We were running in the supposed 'red box' EGT wise on that flight. Yes, in the summer, that's not a good idea. We don't fly LOP for now because 1. We don't have an engine monitor (yet, I've got an EDM-700 on order) 2. the fuel injectors are not close enough to do that in our particular aircraft(we're going to fix that too). And we do have the Midwest Mooney chart and when it's warmer, we follow their recommendations (took out of Scottsdale on a 90 F day and had no problem keeping the CHT below 400 during climb and around 380 in cruise with plenty of extra fuel flow to spare). WAS THAT THE BARRON THOMAS PLANE? When it's cool, we fly a lot leaner. For you information, four of the cylinders are original and have close to 2200 hours on them and still going strong. If what I (and the former owners) flew at is all wrong, then why have the cylinders lasted that long? I WOULDN'T CHANGE A THING ON THE OPERATION AS IT WORKS FOR THEM IT SHOULD WORK FOR YOU. I HAVE HAD SEVERAL PROBLEMS WITH THE LOWER COWL DEFORMING FROM ENGINE HEAT SO I AM ALWAYS VIGILANT ABOUT THE MELTING FIBERGLASS. DON MAXWELL (WHO WORKS ON MINE) TELLS ME THAT ALL EAGLES MELT THE COWL -- ITS ONLY A QUESTION OF HOW FAST. On climb out the CHT was showing about 380 and gradually went down as we went up. How does that compare to yours (21 C on the surface)? THAT SOUNDS ABOUT THE SAME AS MINE. I think I'm going to have the fuel flow turned up a bit cause the EGT is slightly above the blue (we were showing about 25 gph, again, what do you get?). I GET ABOUT 28.6 ON CLIMB OUT FULL RICH AND I NEED THAT IN THE SUMMER. IF I GET IN A LONG WAIT ON THE GROUND AT KDAL IN THE SUMMER AND I HAVE RUN THE AC SOMETIMES I WILL SEE 400 FOR A WHILE. Later that day we did a speed run at 6500 and got 185 knots on 19.4 gph with the CHT about 360 (that was at 2500/22.5 and it was 13 C outside; curious why you're faster...). I AM NOT SURE WHY MINE IS A LITTLE FASTER BUT IT COULD BE THE FACT THAT I NEVER CARRY MORE THAN 75 GALS, I AM ALMOST ALWAYS BY MYSELF AND I KEEP ABOUT 50 LBS IN THE BACK OF THE BAGGAGE COMPARTMENT SO I HAVE A LITTLE LESS TRIM IN THE PLANE. ALSO, I REMOVED THE STEP. Thanks for the response though as your aircraft seems quite a bit speadier than ours for the same fuel flows and I'm wondering why that could be. YOUR GUESS IS AS GOOD AS MINE. I HAVE NEVER FIGURED OUT THESE DIFFERENCES AMONG WHAT ARE IDENTICAL AIRCRAFT BUT I THINK EVERY MOONEY IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT. I CAN SAY THAT MINE HAS 600 HOUR CYLINDERS ON A 950 HOUR MOTOR SO MAYBE I AM MAKING CLOSER TO THE RATED 310. ALSO THE TOP AND BOTTOM OF THE PLANE ARE COVERED IN REJEX. THAT MAY BE A LITTLE SNAKE OIL BUT I DO BELIEVE THAT REJEX IS GOOD FOR A TWO OR THREE KNOTS IF YOU DO ALL THE SURFACES OF THE PLANE. Also, the last aircraft I had was a 1968 M20F that I put almost 1000 hours on. All 1000 of those hours were flown with the CHT at or below 400 (even in cruise 400 is acceptable to me and happens quite frequently in Texas). We replaced the cylinders at 1800 and 17 years since new, so I'm thinking I'm not doing anything terribly wrong. Also, I don't believe in running the aircraft extremely cool in the winter months, just a waste of fuel if you ask me. MY LAST AIRPLANE WAS A BARON AND THE GOOD THING ABOUT THE MOONEY WAS AT LEAST YOU GET A BREAK BETWEEN BUYING CYLINDERS. Carusoam: Thanks for the info. Just one little question: Are those EGT's in the 1400s really 50 ROP for y'all? If I run the EGT down in the 1400's I get nice cool cylinders just like you and docket are reporting, but the fuel flow goes up quite a bit. You happen to know what the fuel flow was at during that set? Parker: I've tried 3 directional and the results are basically identical. Also, I'll be flying LOP again as soon as I get the EDM installed and get some better balanced fuel injectors. I don't believe our ASI much as it reads consistently about five percent below what a GPS true calculations shows. I went through the logs and I found that there is know mention of more than a brief visual inspection of the pitot after a gear up landing in 2004. I'm thinking it got bent and is now not overly accurate at higher speeds (the error is small enough it doesn't make a whole lot of difference in the pattern...). Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted March 25, 2010 Report Posted March 25, 2010 LOP isn't just for cyl temps, a big part of the equation is for reduced internal combustion pressures that cause a lot of wear. But, I see you're about to be LOPping it so I won't go any further. Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted March 25, 2010 Report Posted March 25, 2010 Quote: carusoam This data was collected in November near KSAT. Parker, Great panel upgrade! I would like to borrow a copy of your panel and combine it with JBrown's 310 hp for my M20R and call it --- an Ovation 3. Best regards, - anthony - Quote
docket Posted March 25, 2010 Report Posted March 25, 2010 Quote: JBrown Docket: Yes, it's the aircraft Barron Thomas was selling. Why? I JUST HEARD ALL OF THE STUFF ABOUT BARRON THOMAS THAT WAS POSTED AROUND THE INTERNET INCLUDING THE INDICTMENT/LAWSUIT FILED AGAINST HIM. I HAVE READ A LOT OF INTERESTING QUOTES ABOUT HIM. It had some problems found during the prebuy but we got them fixed at no cost to us and plus we got it for a steal (can you say $130,000 for a late model long body?!!!). NOT SURPRISED THAT YOU FOUND PROBLEMS ON ANYTHING SOLD BY THAT BROKER. I DO KNOW THAT THE PLANE WAS GEARED UP BECAUSE I SAW THE PICTURES OF THAT PLANE ON THE INTERNET AFTER THE GEAR UP. I THINK I REMEMBER THAT THE PLANE WAS USED AS A SCHOOL TRAINER OR A RENTAL. Paint could use some touching up and we're going to be overhauling the engine here some time. Also, we're expecting the first annual to be in the $30-40k range because of some neglect over the past year. If you don't mind me asking, what do your annuals average too? MINE USUALLY AVERAGE ABOUT 3000 TO 5000 BUT I AM VERY PICKY IT COULD PROBABLY BE DONE CHEAPER. It's not too much of a concern as I'm very conservative on the financial side of things (I paid cash for the airplane as an example), I'm just kinda curious. Not trying to be intrusive or anything... Anyway, I plan on flying LOP as soon as I get the EDM and GAMI's in there and I'm hoping that will cool things down a bit. Oh, and we also have a bit of bulging on the cowl from the heat. Also, is your current aircraft 56FM? YES, I BOUGHT THE PLANE IN 2006 FROM THE FIRST OWNER IN NEW YORK WITH ABOUT 600 HOURS. THE AD, FOR REASONS THAT I NEVER UNDERSTAND, IS PERPETUALLY ON THE INTERNET AND WILL APPARENTLY NEVER GO AWAY. I FLY ABOUT 300 HOURS A YEAR SO I HAVE ADDED ABOUT 1200 HOURS TO THE HOBBS I looked at your pictures and then I sees adds for it for sale. AIN'T MUCH LEFT OF THE PLANE THAT I BOUGHT IN 2006. ABOUT THE ONLY THING FROM THE ORIGINAL PANEL IS THE AIR CONDITIONING SWITCH. THE BETTER PICTURES ARE HERE IN MY GALLERY. Quote
KLRDMD Posted March 26, 2010 Report Posted March 26, 2010 Quote: JBrown Anyway, we're planning on replacing everything firewall forward except the prop within the next year, and the rest of the aircraft is in very, very good condition from what my mechanic and I can see and what the mechanic in Chandler told me after the extremely thorough prebuy inspection. Quote
docket Posted March 26, 2010 Report Posted March 26, 2010 Quote: JBrown docket: Yes, Barron Thomas has a bit of rough personality. In our experience however he was very polite and helpful and took care of all the problems we found without complaint. One of the speed break blades was inop (got the set shipped back to Precise Flight and completely remanufactured at the owners expense), brake fluid was beginning to jell, mainly fairly minor annoyances... The mechanic we did the preflight with said that the gear up was repaired very professionally and there is no exterior or interior damage that I can see when I look at it with the mechanic here in Texas (we took the belly panels off, and took a very close look). You happen to have any of those pictures of the gear up? GOOD LUCK WITH THE NEW EAGLE. I AM LOOKING FOR THE PICS. The plane was used for a few years by a flight school out in Odessa before being sold to a couple of partners in 2004. Reportedly, one of the partners only had time in fixed gear aircraft and he was the one to forget that important little switch. On his FIRST solo flight in it no less. I'm not to worried about that since everything looks as good or better than any of the other Ovations/Eagles I looked at and this one was particularly well maintained according to the logs, and I got it cheap enough that I have plenty of money to get it up to speed just the way I want it compared to buying some one else's pristine airplane. Anyway, we're planning on replacing everything firewall forward except the prop within the next year, and the rest of the aircraft is in very, very good condition from what my mechanic and I can see and what the mechanic in Chandler told me after the extremely thorough prebuy inspection. Quote
Greg_D Posted March 29, 2010 Report Posted March 29, 2010 Quote: JBrown It had some problems found during the prebuy but we got them fixed at no cost to us and plus we got it for a steal (can you say $130,000 for a late model long body?!!!). Paint could use some touching up and we're going to be overhauling the engine here some time. Also, we're expecting the first annual to be in the $30-40k range because of some neglect over the past year. Quote
KLRDMD Posted March 29, 2010 Report Posted March 29, 2010 Quote: JBrown I should never joined a forum of such inconsiderate people... Quote
FlyDave Posted March 29, 2010 Report Posted March 29, 2010 Quote: KLRDMD People that know these airplanes well, and know brokers and maintenance facilities are telling you that you probably didn't get the deal you think you did - but you don't want to hear it. If you choose to stick around, I think you'll find people here aren't inconsiderate at all - but they are upfront and honest. Quote
MooneyMitch Posted March 29, 2010 Report Posted March 29, 2010 Enjoy and fly the heck out of that Mooney!! Share the Passion!!!..........about our fantastic airplanes. Quote
M016576 Posted March 29, 2010 Report Posted March 29, 2010 JB- Sounds to me like you got an amazing deal on her! I'm of the "buy slightly distressed and fix it how you want it" mindset, too. That way you control the work that's done, and ensure that it's your aircraft top to bottom, one that you'd feel safe and comfortable operating. Particularly these days, where panels are half way through upgrades, paint may be peeling a bit and all annuals are not created equal! -Job Quote
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