Mooney down at Angelfire

[aviatoreb]

It would be more helpful and more accurate to try and figure out what would lead a good pilot to make a poor decision. He may have felt pressure to get home, to show his passengers his skills, or felt that he would be okay because he had handled strong winds before. He may have fooled himself into believing that he would get some updrafts once he reached the hills on the eastern edge of the valley. At least every year or two someone crashes here due to downdrafts in high wind. A few years ago a bonanza with seven on board went down about 40 miles east of angel fire, the pilot was based in phx, probably not familiar with the affects of high winds in the mountains. This is a chronic problem, good pilots making poor decisions. One we all have to watch for.

 

I agree.  That is what I was trying to say.  It is useful to try to get inside this guys head otherwise we risk making such mistakes.

[aviatoreb]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you really meant aviatoreb. It wasn't my intention to turn anything you said upside down. Not at all.

Certainly "empathy" would not the proper expression here. Sympathy for the families involved, absolutely. But to empathize with this guy would be to sugarcoat and somehow excuse what he did as it could happen to anyone. This tragedy didn't just happen. He caused it.

 

Ok, I think we disagree as to the semantics of a word, but I am fine if we simply disagree on that point.  I just didn't want to be misquoted.  We are good.  It is a tragedy we agree.  He caused it we agree.  I just wish I could understand what was going through his head - call that a survival strategy on my part.

[bnicolette]

  By myself no problem trying for my original destination thinking I will likely go around and head to a more favorable airport.  With my family?  Forget it.  

Well said Earl.  I whole heartedly agree.  I always try to be more diligent when my family or any passengers are onboard.  Not to say that I do dangerous stuff when I am alone, but I will take a calculated risk when flying by myself......e.g. low ceilings, night flight, etc... but I absolutely will not put folks in the airplane under those conditions.

I think that if you wouldn't be able to look your pax in the eyes and tell them that no matter what happens during this flight, I am prepared and able to meet that condition/emergency in order to have a safe outcome, then you shouldn't push that throttle forward.

 

i think what gets my emotions going on this circumstance is that 3 unsuspecting folks were killed including a child.  And like Aviatorweb said, I wish I could understand what led to the decision to "go".  During my training I was always taught to respect "hills" and wind.  My base airport is located right next to a ridge (KLBE) and any easterly wind, even a light wind, will make the ride until getting above the ridge somewhat interesting to say the least.  Perhaps this individual was only used to flying around flat lands and never experienced or had knowledge of the effects of "hills" and wind?  I know that I am not above making mistakes and errors in judgement and just hope to stay prudent in continuing to learn and understand aviating.

[DonMuncy]

It goes without saying that I feel for this pilot's family etc.

As to our learning from it; I worry a little.

This case, like those who die after departing into a known thunderstorms, is easy. We read about them and conclude we wouldn't have taken off under those conditions. We can pat ourselves on the back and feel safe.

But I worry a lot more about those who "buy the farm" when taking off in only a little worse conditions than they could handle. I have done it, and I expect that most everyone here has.

Unfortunately, my belief is that if we only flew in weather we feel very comfortable with, we would never progress in our abilities. We have to push our limits a little to expand our limits. I think the tough part is deciding when we are pushing our limit vs exceeding our limits.

I think we learn most from the ones where we say "I could have done that."

[scottfromiowa]

No other traffic that day...manager asked pilot if he was really going to fly? He said "yeah"...

Sister dead ...niece dead... Girlfriend dead...

Big photo of a Mooney on AOPA with these details....

Just makes me sad.

Not good Mooney drivers.

NOT GOOD!

[scottfromiowa]

It would be more helpful and more accurate to try and figure out what would lead a good pilot to make a poor decision. He may have felt pressure to get home, to show his passengers his skills, or felt that he would be okay because he had handled strong winds before. He may have fooled himself into believing that he would get some updrafts once he reached the hills on the eastern edge of the valley. At least every year or two someone crashes here due to downdrafts in high wind. A few years ago a bonanza with seven on board went down about 40 miles east of angel fire, the pilot was based in phx, probably not familiar with the affects of high winds in the mountains. This is a chronic problem, good pilots making poor decisions. One we all have to watch for.

Figure out how to get into the dreads thoughts and I will buy stock in your company...

[aviatoreb]

Here is another airplane crash in the mountains last week - very close by to my home airport.  Lake Placid is 50nm from my home airport KPTD.  Thankfully and really by just dumb luck everyone walked away from a CFIT despite getting lost in the dark, in the mountains, in the ice in the clouds in their RV10.

 

 

 

 http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/article/20130303/NEWS05/703039838

 

There was much discussion in another thread here about the importance of pilot's skills toward our own safety.  And absolutely I am on board with that and I train/practice procedures and so forth often.  But really, that is the minor part of the safety per hour of operation of our airplanes as far as I can see by the record.  Its the decisions we make that are overwhelmingly the larger order magnitude part of the statistical danger of flying.  (Unlike driving where other people like drunk drivers and so forth can more easily take out a good driver).

 

Deciding when to go or not, how much weight to carry, where to go, when to divert, when to file, when to attend to a maintenance issue, and so forth, these are the things to keep safe.  I quote from my A&P who said to me this morning regarding what lesson can be learned from the RV10: "How about "don't fly into the mountains in ice & dark & clouds?" Should I placard your panel with one of those?"  I told him (jokingly), ""Wise up stupid!"  That should cover it."

 

To wit, I remember the case of a 747 captain in the news who had a stupid fatal accident several years ago.  I think he was 25,000 pilot with all the skills in the world.  (From memory so if I am off by a few thousand hours please forgive me - this story is substantively correct).  But he had a screw loose in his decision making.  He had just purchased a Cessna 150 near christmas time for personal use.  He was ferrying it home across the midwest scud running illegally under 800ft ceilings.  I imagine there was ice in the clouds which is why he stayed low since surely he knows how to fly ifr.  I bet that a C150 seems like a slow motion machine compared to so much experience in a 747, where as I remember things happening so quickly even in a C150 during my first few hours.  Apparently he was banking on the fact that in the midwest you can count on some winter days with a nice flat terrain and ceilings constant for long stretches.  He flew along no problem for 100s of miles until he almost hit a cell tower.  He pulled up hard (from the Garmin handheld data recorder reported by the NTSB), into the clouds and then came down nose first.  And the 747 captain took himself out in a lowly Cessna 150.

[midlifeflyer]

I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you really meant aviatoreb. It wasn't my intention to turn anything you said upside down. Not at all.

Certainly "empathy" would not the proper expression here. Sympathy for the families involved, absolutely. But to empathize with this guy would be to sugarcoat and somehow excuse what he did as it could happen to anyone. This tragedy didn't just happen. He caused it.

The stats say that most of the time, we are the cause of our in-flight tragedies. It's easy to point to one of these and see the glaring pilot errors. But I also recall that Rod Machado once said that the only real difference between a gear-up and talking the wrong frequency is the consequences; the psychology that underlies both is the same.

[fantom]

It goes without saying that I feel for this pilot's family.....

 

I think we learn most from the ones where we say "I could have done that."

 

Agree, Don.

 

Taking off in WX to take a look at it from above almost always leaves one with options, like turning around. A good learning experience. This guy killed his family. If he did the same in a car, but survived, he'd be charged with manslaughter, at a minimum, and rightly so.

 

Reading stories like this one, are valuable as a sanity check, if not a piloting lesson.

 

Whatever my personal risk tolerance is when solo, it's reduced exponentially when flying with passengers.

[jlunseth]

The stats say that most of the time, we are the cause of our in-flight tragedies. It's easy to point to one of these and see the glaring pilot errors. But I also recall that Rod Machado once said that the only real difference between a gear-up and talking the wrong frequency is the consequences; the psychology that underlies both is the same.

 

That may be true, but even with slips (unconscious errors) I have noticed that there is an unconscious prioritization.  I am much more likely, for example, to talk the wrong frequency than to land gear up.  That is partly because I have routines that work to prevent the gear up, but it is also because I fear the gear up alot more and therefore think about it every landing, but a wrong frequency or similar errors not so much, I will catch them eventually and they have a much smaller chance of having a serious consequence.

[Mooneytestpilot]

I knew Mr. Verhalen well.  May he and the other passengers rest in peace.   

 

Flying out of AF was a handful in a Bravo years ago. I cant imagine the lack of performance in a heavily laden 200hp older model Mooney.  I add 75% to my figures for short field/high density altitude performance planning.  Even at that, I've often been surprised with lower actual ROC in the mountains even on calmer days.  Lets all take this as a reminder that safety must be planned