Seatbelt Airbag system for M20J / M20K

[richardheitzman]

What happened in the other 153 accidents, they died?

 

José

The NTSB stated that we did not induce injuries, and that in most cases we prevented head and torso trauma. You can read the report if you dfo a little internet research.

[richardheitzman]

Polls like this one bug me. The third question has no valid answer but we are forced by the format to give one.

Not interested at any "saleable" price just wasn't there. If you gave it to me at your cost I wouldn't pay to have it put in. I'd sell it off to get something else.

I am sick of the "wear your bicycle helmet" over protective society we are becoming. When our Federal government can tell me my chrome wiper blades are too dangerous and must be painted flat black we have gone too far. I am sure there is a lobby to force airbags into every new plane out there. Trying to turn an option into a forced sale. I have to hold down 2 levers on my lawn mower just to make it go cause some idiot stuck his hand where it doesn't belong. We all pay our "idiot tax" when we buy stuff that has mandated safety equiptment.

PS

I guess I am just OTR today, sorry

Comments like this one bug me (lol just kidding).

 

I hope you feel better. Considering that this was a "request" poll from the Mooney group I find your comments a bit off topic.

 

Thank you though for sharing.

 

R

[Piloto]

The NTSB stated that we did not induce injuries, and that in most cases we prevented head and torso trauma. You can read the report if you dfo a little internet research.

Thanks for the explanation. I found the report a little bit confusing.

 

No doubt the AmSafe airbags provides added protection on some crashes. But crash prevention provides 100% injury free outcome. You can either choose to spend $5,000 on crash protection or $5,000 on crash prevention, its your choice. 

 

 

I also found this about racing cars not using air bags but rather 4 points restrains similar to those used by the airline pilots and hurricane hunter airplanes. Besides crash protection the 4 point restrain keeps you from hitting the ceiling in severe turbulence. My experience with them during windshear radar testing is that you feel less shaking than with a shoulder harness. I am thinking about installing them in my plane.

 

 

 

If airbags are so safe, why don't any race cars use them?

Nascar is supposedly all about safety (e.g. metal cages; head restraining units; multipoint seat harnesses; fuel cells) yet no airbags- not a one. They don't weight that much and if everyone had to use them as a rule it would make weight a non-issue. As far as "they go to fast" - crashes occur at all speeds so that's no reason. Either they work and have value in a crash or they don't...I just thought it was very ironic.

• 4 years ago
• Report Abuse

 

Vince M

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters

Race car drivers are strapped in from several points around the body. A driver is NOT going to be impaled by his steering column because his body is not going to whip forward in a frontal crash, unlike a driver in a regular street vehicle, who is only strapped in from three points.

We could turn right around and ask you why aren't regular car driver required to wear helmets and fire resistant clothing, if THESE are so safe.

Different kinds of vehicles and differnent kinds of driving conditions.

Source(s):

Certified Instructor, National Safety Council Defensive Driving Course 4

[N201MKTurbo]

I think wearing a helmet would give you a higher level of safety for a lot less money.

 

other then CFIT you usually know ahead of time that you are going to crash and you would have time to put a helmet on.

 

In a CFIT crash, I doubt the airbag would do any good.

 

Are there any statistics on how many lives would be saved with airbags in GA planes?

[Piloto]

I agree about helmets. How about this one?

 

José

[richardheitzman]

If I would have to guess on they system they use, they probably us a "active" inertia reel that pretensions the system when they crash . They also have as roll cage around them that multiple straps keep them positioned. They cannot move anything other than a slight head movement and arms / legs.

 

During dynamic testing, they probably proved that there are no strike hazards if the car stays together. There fore they do not need an airbag to provide protection.

 

What AmSafe airbags do, is prevent HEAD and TORSO injuries in what would be considered a survivable crash. 80+% of all aviation accidents happen at the airport, and the number one injury and number one fatality injury is head and torso trauma. We do not prevent ALL injury as you are stating below. That would be impossible.

 

Comparing Nascar restraint systems and a basic three point seatbelt in an GA aircraft is a little off base. They are different crash senarios, vehicles, and operations. You can probably come up with a way to strap yourself into the Mooney similar to the Nascar driver, with helmet , fire suit, oxygen system, fire supression system and then go fly but will you have fun?

 

Thanks for the explanation. I found the report a little bit confusing.

 

No doubt the AmSafe airbags provides added protection on some crashes. But crash prevention provides 100% injury free outcome. You can either choose to spend $5,000 on crash protection or $5,000 on crash prevention, its your choice. 

 

 

I also found this about racing cars not using air bags but rather 4 points restrains similar to those used by the airline pilots and hurricane hunter airplanes. Besides crash protection the 4 point restrain keeps you from hitting the ceiling in severe turbulence. My experience with them during windshear radar testing is that you feel less shaking than with a shoulder harness. I am thinking about installing them in my plane.

 

 

 

If airbags are so safe, why don't any race cars use them?

Nascar is supposedly all about safety (e.g. metal cages; head restraining units; multipoint seat harnesses; fuel cells) yet no airbags- not a one. They don't weight that much and if everyone had to use them as a rule it would make weight a non-issue. As far as "they go to fast" - crashes occur at all speeds so that's no reason. Either they work and have value in a crash or they don't...I just thought it was very ironic.

• 4 years ago
• Report Abuse

 

Vince M

Best Answer - Chosen by Voters

Race car drivers are strapped in from several points around the body. A driver is NOT going to be impaled by his steering column because his body is not going to whip forward in a frontal crash, unlike a driver in a regular street vehicle, who is only strapped in from three points.

We could turn right around and ask you why aren't regular car driver required to wear helmets and fire resistant clothing, if THESE are so safe.

Different kinds of vehicles and differnent kinds of driving conditions.

Source(s):

Certified Instructor, National Safety Council Defensive Driving Course 4

[aviatoreb]

PM sent.

[Bennett]

I once collided, head on, with a snowplow with a closing speed of about 75 MPH.  We we both driving downhill (the road dipped into a valley) where we both contacted black ice in the shadows.   I was driving a brand new Ford Escape with AW drive engaged - didn't matter. The primary dash airbags deployed for both myself and my passenger.  As you might imagine, the Escape was crushed all the way back to front doors (one still worked), but neither of us was injured - not even a major bruise!  We were also wearing the standard lap/shoulder belts. The stop was so rapid that a necklace worn by my passenger was ripped away from her when the chain broke.  The Escape managed to put a major dent into the snowplow blade, but the driver was OK, but shaken up. So, I am a supporter of airbags (and shoulder harnesses).  I wish our Mooneys could be equipped with 4 or 5 point shoulder harnesses.  I installed them in a Cessna 120 that I fully restored some years ago, and a friend to whom I lent the airplane (after a tailwheel checkout by a CFI) managed to cartwheel the aircraft (not the usual ground loop) when landing downwind in strong gusty winds. (Don't ask!)  My show plane Cessna was destroyed, the cockpit crushed, but he walked away with only a few cuts from the broken windshield.  I also had 4 point harnesses installed in my LSA, which helped a great deal in turbulence - these LSA's are very light, and bounce around quite a bit in turbulence.  My point being, I would install both 4/5 point harnesses in my Mooney, along with the AmSafe airbags if they were available.  Of course, some crashes are not survivable, but I would sure like having a fighting chance in the more normal take off and landing mishaps. 

 

As an aside, since NASCAR was mentioned, and I am a fan, I attended a NASCAR driving course a few years ago, and the driver is essentially immobilized once strapped in - 5 point harness, neck braces, helmets with restraints, extensive large diameter tubing roll cage, etc.  You can barely see forward, and only the legs and arms have any mobility, and even then, not as much as one might expect.  No, I didn't crash, hit the wall, or spin out, but if I did, I'm sure I would have walked away, even though I was hitting 145 + on the back straightaway. Much slower than the current generation of NASCAR cars, but these were older cars just used for training on relatively short courses, but fast enough to pay attention to the spotters and coaches. 

[Bennett]

The thread seems to have stalled, but I still want the airbags for the front seats for my 1983 M20J. I suspect that there are instances where they could make a crash survivable - not always, of course, but some, and that would be worth the cost of installation. 

[Marauder]

Bennett - I share your sentiments on airbags in vehicles on the road. I too was involved in a significant accident, T boning a guy who turned in front of me at a highway intersection. The Ford I was driving had the first generation airbags (early 90s) and other than being scrapped up from the airbag door and having "droF" inscribed on my forehead, I was fine. The accident was violent enough to knock both of my tied on shoes off. The challenge with airbags in airplanes is the cost. I would be more than willing to participate in a group buy if it would help lower the cost to something reasonable. BTW - for those wondering about "droF" - Ford managed to find a way to put an embroidery "Ford" in the cloth of the airbag. It transferred very nicely to my forehead...

[bd32322]

Richard

 

Is the $4480 plus installation for the two front seats only or the four seats?

 

José

Whats the answer to this?

Thanks

[aviatoreb]

The thread seems to have stalled, but I still want the airbags for the front seats for my 1983 M20J. I suspect that there are instances where they could make a crash survivable - not always, of course, but some, and that would be worth the cost of installation. 

 

I'm in.

 

Thanks for waking the thread back up Bennett.

 

This won't happen unless people vocally express interest - and then later if/when the time comes show willingness to buy.  They are offering a price reduction for the pre STC commitments.

[richardheitzman]

Thanks for the comments here in the forum. 

 

Jose the price does not include installation. Installation time is expected to be 8 - 10 hours labor. 

 

R

[romair]

So about $ 5000 total for the front seats. I'm in. The sooner, the better....

[dfurst]

I am ready to do this.  I fly a 1980 M20K 231. unfortunately my serial number is below your current cutoff for the M20K line.  I am ready to put down a deposit if that will help you get more M20K people ready to go.

 

Reading through the thread people are questioning the value of this.  I believe most crashes are controlled crashes due to a problem in the air, meaning an off airport landing that are survivable.  In many cases they go wrong and serious injury happens.  CFIT?  I agree, that typically happens at speed and I doubt anything is going to help.

 

On a more personal note we had a Mooney crash at Freeway in MD on Labor Day.  To make it more personal it was my old Mooney.  There is nothing more chilling than to be reading a news story about a plane crash and recognizing the paint job on the airplane.

 

We are still waiting on many details but what we do know is that the airplane barely cleared the highway at the end of the runway and crashed in the dirt embankment on the other side of the highway. This was a dead stop at some speed above stall but below climb.  The pilot and two passengers are in serious condition.  The passenger in the rear was the least hurt but still very serious. The pilot's face and torso were severely injured as well as damage to his legs.  I am not sure but I believe the other front seat passenger sustained the same type of injuries. 

 

The crash was obviously survivable because all three did survice.  In my personal opinion airbags would have reduced some of these injuries. That is good enough for me.

 

Please do what you can to make airbags available for older M20K models.  $8,000 (parts and labor) sounds cheap for something I hope I will never need.

[aviatoreb]

I am ready to do this.  I fly a 1980 M20K 231. unfortunately my serial number is below your current cutoff for the M20K line.  I am ready to put down a deposit if that will help you get more M20K people ready to go.

 

Reading through the thread people are questioning the value of this.  I believe most crashes are controlled crashes due to a problem in the air, meaning an off airport landing that are survivable.  In many cases they go wrong and serious injury happens.  CFIT?  I agree, that typically happens at speed and I doubt anything is going to help.

 

On a more personal note we had a Mooney crash at Freeway in MD on Labor Day.  To make it more personal it was my old Mooney.  There is nothing more chilling than to be reading a news story about a plane crash and recognizing the paint job on the airplane.

 

We are still waiting on many details but what we do know is that the airplane barely cleared the highway at the end of the runway and crashed in the dirt embankment on the other side of the highway. This was a dead stop at some speed above stall but below climb.  The pilot and two passengers are in serious condition.  The passenger in the rear was the least hurt but still very serious. The pilot's face and torso were severely injured as well as damage to his legs.  I am not sure but I believe the other front seat passenger sustained the same type of injuries. 

 

The crash was obviously survivable because all three did survice.  In my personal opinion airbags would have reduced some of these injuries. That is good enough for me.

 

Please do what you can to make airbags available for older M20K models.  $8,000 (parts and labor) sounds cheap for something I hope I will never need.

 

Sometimes when I am buckling into my 1981 M20K - I remember that I cannot yet have these airbags that I believe are a really good thing, and that I am quite willing to purchase and I have expressed my strong desire here to do so.  Then I get mad at the FAA's stodgy STC system that delays these things for an expensive testing process that denies me seatbelts in the name of safety.

 

I hope we get enough buyers soon and I will put my $ where my mouth is.

[Martin H]

Mr. Heitzman,

 

   I am shopping for a plane to upgrade from my Cherokee.   I am looking toward the Mooney Rocket.

 

   I know / have read / studied your system and its reviews for years.   I am interested.   But $5000 installed..... is a LOT after buying a new(er) plane and pre-purchase, and annual, and learning how to fly it with instructor, etc.

 

   I would make TWO recommendations to you:

   - You make your system a four (4) point system to keep me in place and allow me to use BOTH of my shoulders to keep me inplace as your system saves my torso and head

 

   - Have an "installed price" of $3 AMUs or less.

 

   I'm a soldier - $3 AMUs is a LOT, $5 AMUs is MUCH more.... no matter how fast you say it.    

 

   Of course, deployment means something different to your business and mine.....

 

 

   Martin

[jetdriven]

I am ready to do this.  I fly a 1980 M20K 231. unfortunately my serial number is below your current cutoff for the M20K line.  I am ready to put down a deposit if that will help you get more M20K people ready to go.

 

Reading through the thread people are questioning the value of this.  I believe most crashes are controlled crashes due to a problem in the air, meaning an off airport landing that are survivable.  In many cases they go wrong and serious injury happens.  CFIT?  I agree, that typically happens at speed and I doubt anything is going to help.

 

On a more personal note we had a Mooney crash at Freeway in MD on Labor Day.  To make it more personal it was my old Mooney.  There is nothing more chilling than to be reading a news story about a plane crash and recognizing the paint job on the airplane.

 

We are still waiting on many details but what we do know is that the airplane barely cleared the highway at the end of the runway and crashed in the dirt embankment on the other side of the highway. This was a dead stop at some speed above stall but below climb.  The pilot and two passengers are in serious condition.  The passenger in the rear was the least hurt but still very serious. The pilot's face and torso were severely injured as well as damage to his legs.  I am not sure but I believe the other front seat passenger sustained the same type of injuries. 

 

The crash was obviously survivable because all three did survice.  In my personal opinion airbags would have reduced some of these injuries. That is good enough for me.

 

Please do what you can to make airbags available for older M20K models.  $8,000 (parts and labor) sounds cheap for something I hope I will never need.

Did your old plane have shoulder harnesses and were they wearing them? Embankments are a hard stop. A large percentage of vehicle fatalities result from hitting them as we'll.

[dfurst]

Old plane did have shoulder harnesses but that old M20C cabin is so small and you are so close to the panel, especially with an adult in the back seat.  I assume they were using them, I know I always do.

 

More details about crash: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Small-Plane-Crash-Lands-in-Trees-in-Bowie-Md-222084931.html.  They used jaws of life to cut top off.

[chrisk]

I love the idea of the seat belt airbag.  But if I have the price right, at ~$3500 per seat before install, I'd have to pass.  That's $8K+ for the front seats alone.     

 

Now, if I owned a 182, and the choice was $8K for airbag seat belts, or $20K for a BRS, I'd go for the BRS.

 

Also, I'm curious if the airbag seat belts have a re-pack requirement on them?

[Seth]

Old plane did have shoulder harnesses but that old M20C cabin is so small and you are so close to the panel, especially with an adult in the back seat. I assume they were using them, I know I always do.

More details about crash: http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Small-Plane-Crash-Lands-in-Trees-in-Bowie-Md-222084931.html. They used jaws of life to cut top off.

Yes they were wearing them as the shoulder straps were cut to get the occupants out. The pilot has multiple crushed bones in his face, has already had surgery and will have many more.

The female in the co-pilot seat also received heavy cuts to the face. The rear passenger had extensive leg and knee injuries.

The shoulder straps probably saved the front occupants lives.

-Seth

[Piloto]

No answer to price. So I assume is $4480 per seat kit. You can get a parachute for half at 

 

http://www.nationalparachute.com/page8.html

 

Don't forget to pull the ripcord. Warranty is voided if you don't

 

José

[dfurst]

With regard to price my understanding is $4,480 is for both front seats, not each. 

 

$4,480 plus 8 hours installation

[richardheitzman]

Hello again, 

 

Sorry I didn't see the replies and questions on the forum. 

 

Jose, each kit is for TWO SEATS. 

 

Labor time is from 8 - 12 hours

 

I would say that this system is PRICE WORTHY. I understand that for most aircraft owners in the C-F category the value of the aircraft ($40k - 65k) means that the investment of $5k must be considered carefully.  You are spending money on a system that is designed to save your life and prevent injury. Head and Torso trauma is the number one killer and the number one injury in aviation accidents, irregardless of the type of seatbelt you are wearing.

 

So, anytime you are in a accident that results in a G load of 9G's or greater, at 45ms time or greater, you have enough energy to move you into the instrument panel. Mooney aircraft are designed to withstand a high G load than that without structure failure.

 

If you are making purchase decisions strictly based upon ROI, than there is no amount of information that I can provide you other than to say, what is the value of your life. visit our website at www.amsafe.com to see survivor testimonials.

 

So, as a community I am offering you the chance to move forward into a development program. I suggest, that as a community, this is a opportunity that should not be passed up, especially for the legacy aircraft. 

 

As you all know, I am a Mooney guy for many years. I am using my position in my company to bring you a product that I personally think you need. I have to make a business case in order to push the development. 

 

You all need to discuss this and make up your minds what you want to do. The price is what it is. I will be able to come up with a "program offer" that will drop it probably $500 - $700. I will need no less than 40 owners who come together with no less than 50% deposit. 

 

That will fund the engineering time to change the drawing. This will fund the cost to resubmit the paperwork to the FAA to change the AML STC. This will fund the cost to conduct the static and dynamic deployment of the system in aircraft mock up sled tests. 

 

 

Thanks

 

R

[Bennett]

I'm in. I want the airbags for my 1983 J and I am ready to put up a deposit.