Questions on install for a new panel mount GPS...

[scottfromiowa]

What is the real world labor charge for installation of a Garmin 430W (removing a 300XL), with nav head and antenna replacement?

 

I am finding used 430W for $6AMU range.  What (besides internal battery are areas to be worried about in the install?

 

No other nav head beyond 106.  Will have cross-talk wires installed for existing panel mount 696.

 

Is an annunciator needed if there is also a KX155 VOR?

 

What is price range for IFR cert? (plane has updated pitot static, but has NOT been IFR certified for years).

 

Only auto-pilot is analog for Accu-trak (already wired to 300XL)

 

Com wires already going to existing intercom and KMA24.

 

Thanks for input/feedback.  Feel free to try and upsell to the newer touchscreen Garmin...reasons

 

Thanks,

 

Scott

[Alan Fox]

Pitot static IFR is about 150 if there are no leaks , An annunciator is not required if the garmin is within 12 or 15 inches of the center of the scan (you should be ok if the garmin is mounted in the center stack ) You will have to change the antenna , also you will have to use the special antenna cable cable, Looks almost copper in color , the black is not acceptable....You will need a Glideslope indicator , probably about a twenty hour install when you consider making harnesses and fabricating panel stuff and moving stuff around....  I have done two installs on my airplanes with the garmin GNS series , I married them to a sandel 3308 and am thrilled..... Make SURE that your Garmin is a Dual voltage box..... Good luck...   

[ELT]

Hi Scott,

In July I had Sparkchasers install a new 430W in my 1966 E.  The new 430W was $7,300.  They removed an MX11 com and KNS 80.  Moved the TXP to center stack.  Moved the engine analyzer to pilots side.  The ILS head from the KNS80 was compatable with the 430W.  New circuit breakers were installed and a clean up of old wiring.  The 430 requires a cooling fan and other stuff. Also hard mounted an iPad Ram mount to the right of the center stack.  No auto pilot hook up.  $4,600 for labor and hardware.

[scottfromiowa]

Didn't know about the need to replace the antenna cable with the 430w...Thanks for that.  Thanks also for confirming we don't need the addition of an annunciator.  Why are used 430w's holding their value so well when the new GTN touch screens are out? 

[scottfromiowa]

Load up a panel shot in your gallery ELT...

[jetdriven]

What is the real world labor charge for installation of a Garmin 430W (removing a 300XL), with nav head and antenna replacement?

 

I am finding used 430W for $6AMU range.  What (besides internal battery are areas to be worried about in the install?

 

No other nav head beyond 106.  Will have cross-talk wires installed for existing panel mount 696.

 

Is an annunciator needed if there is also a KX155 VOR?

 

What is price range for IFR cert? (plane has updated pitot static, but has NOT been IFR certified for years).

 

Only auto-pilot is analog for Accu-trak (already wired to 300XL)

 

Com wires already going to existing intercom and KMA24.

 

Thanks for input/feedback.  Feel free to try and upsell to the newer touchscreen Garmin...reasons

 

Thanks,

 

Scott

 

 

Scott, we are in your situation. We have two navcom's, a flaky KN61 DME, a panel mount VFR KLN-89B GPS, and an Aera 500 in a panel dock (similar to a 396).  We can go direct anywhere in the USA, Canada, and Mexico, but its not IFR certified.   I contacted a local avionics shop about my options, used GNS-430W, new GTN-650, New GTN-750, and new Avidyne iFD-540 (currently vaporware, but I used it at OSH and it is totally awesome).

 

She reported that labor and installation on all three would be ~$3,500. Plus the Garmin's only use the Garmin indicator for 2K.    Used 430W are ~7K, The GTN-650 is 9,500, the 750 is $13,500, and the iFD540 is $11,000.   Presumably the iFD540 would be compatible with the King indicator but no definite answer from Reid about that.

 

I think an annunciator panel is needed for all 3.

 

I guess its a question of how high you want to take the elevator before you get off. The 430W is adequate but you might get one 6 years old and be facing a flat rate repair for 1500$ in a year, or they may stop supporting it in a couple years.  Some models of thr 430 are not supported already. The 650 has a small screen, the 750 is nice, but top dollar.   For now, we are waiting and evaluating, the new engine and the upcoming paint has blown our 201 budget to hell.

[rbridges]

I was asking someone about installing a 430 or 430w into a plane's panel.  Used 430s are around 5-6 with WAAS units being around  a grand higher--kinda like you already said.  He quited me around $2500 for install and parts.  I remember thinking it would be around 8-10 but I'm sure it depends on how much modification is required in your panel.

[rbridges]

btw, did you read the latest mooney flyer?  They had a small article stating that 28v 430 non-waas units aren't going to be supported.  They said something about running out of parts.

[M016576]

Didn't know about the need to replace the antenna cable with the 430w...Thanks for that. Thanks also for confirming we don't need the addition of an annunciator. Why are used 430w's holding their value so well when the new GTN touch screens are out?

My guess- a WAAS GPS is a WAAS GPS. The GTN's have a nicer interface, but aren't adding any new functionality... As such, 430W's are still in high demand. The question is- is the extra 3 or so grand for a GTN worth it for the smoother interface? For some yes, others, no.

[rbridges]

Didn't know about the need to replace the antenna cable with the 430w...Thanks for that. Thanks also for confirming we don't need the addition of an annunciator. Why are used 430w's holding their value so well when the new GTN touch screens are out?

My guess- a WAAS GPS is a WAAS GPS. The GTN's have a nicer interface, but aren't adding any new functionality... As such, 430W's are still in high demand. The question is- is the extra 3 or so grand for a GTN worth it for the smoother interface? For some yes, others, no.

If I were starting from scratch, it would be a tough call.  Personally, I'm a little considered about long term support for the 430s.  My decision was easier since I did a WAAS upgrade instead of buying a whole new unit.

[Alan Fox]

The 430 is worth more , because you cant buy a new garmin unit and install it yourself.......Garmin dealers are not allowed to sell new equipment without installing it.....Making the takeouts hold thier value......also a new 650 is about 11 k plus install , so the 7k 430 is a bargain....

[jetdriven]

The 650 is 9500$. The real struggle, is a new current production GTN-650 worth 2-3K more than a 1-6 year old 430W?

[N601RX]

The installer is either required to measure the loss of the coax and verify it is within a range or just replace it with RG 400. The Garmin dealers are allowed to sell a new unit to someone if you give them the N# of an experimental that you plan to install it in. I suspose you could always change your mind about which plane it goes in. A complete correspondence test is required on the encoder/ transponder any time the wiring to it is messed with.

[Bob_Belville]

I think you ought to spring for the whole enchilada. Why should I have about the only $50AMU+ panels in a M20E? ;-)

[larryb]

My opinion only.... No way would I put in 10 year old, low screen resolution technology in my plane to save a couple thousand $. One problem with that old radio may just erase your savings.

[Marauder]

btw, did you read the latest mooney flyer? They had a small article stating that 28v 430 non-waas units aren't going to be supported. They said something about running out of parts.

I saw it. I know there was a thread we had going on long term support for glass panels and the Garmin 430/530 support came up. Not a good situation if they are already running out of parts after, what 2 years after the release of the GTN series?

[scottfromiowa]

I am personally not to concerned with Garmin stopping support of 430W units.  The experimental crowd and lower dollar users place a high demand on the Garmin 430W and it is "W"...

 

That said the potential for an "issue" with a used box IS REAL, but I have had really good success with purchasing used equipment...especially Garmin.  I have old hand helds that are soldiering on without a hitch over 20 years down the road...

 

Garmin's website still lists 430W-New for sale and at $7300 that would be the way I would go.  The price-point for me to enter touch screen is just too high...and I will have a 696 running a large screen too.

 

My co-owner is instrument rated and looking at pricing/options.  Thanks everybody for the input.  Maybe when he steps out of the shadows he can tell you about the upgrade

[Marauder]

My co-owner is instrument rated and looking at pricing/options. Thanks everybody for the input. Maybe when he steps out of the shadows he can tell you about the upgrade

If shadow man needs any input on the upgrades, let us know. A number of us have gone through the process recently and can help fill in the gaps. There are a lot of things different with today's stuff than when you had just Nav/Coms available. The interactions of the hardware with each other is one thing that has increased the number of variables to contend with. It can be a bit confusing.

[Bob_Belville]

When I decide to bite the bullet and go with the 750 along with the Aspen, the JPI 930, and a GDL-88 I had comparison proposals for cheaper options using 430W, 530W, 650, lesser EDMs etc. My first instinct given that I was starting with a 47 year old M20E was to decide between the lesser choices. The delta cost seemed to me to go with the greater capacity stuff. The labor, a major piece of the puzzle, was the same, maybe a little less going high end. With mostly new wiring, etc. I have not had a single squawk. (The former owner replaced a Garmin GPS VFR 150 with an IFR 155. The unit cost him very little, the box was the same size and he assumed labor would not be bad. Turn out to be an expensive nightmare and the GPS never did interface properly with the STEC50.)

[Marauder]

I'll second Bob's comments about the cost. When you begin seeing the breakdown of costs, you realize quickly that labor is a large component of the overall upgrade. This goes to my earlier comment about how these units are much more likely to be integrated. The second thing you need to consider is what you expect to be the longer term future of the plane. I plan on holding on to mine for the long haul. If you look at this plane as transitory in nature, saving a few thousand now will mean you will not lose it later if you decide to sell. So going with the last gen products makes sense. My only concern with Garmin products is that they have a history of ending support on older consumer products. I can't say this will or won't happen with their panel mounted aviation hardware, but I think the 430/530 is something to watch. Granted they are still selling the 430, but at the same time, if the article in Mooney Flyer is correct, they ran out of comm boards already for the 28V version. I believe their legal obligation (lawyers please correct me if I am wrong), is to only support the products they sell new for the warranty period. Beyond that, they can say, "sorry, we can't support it anymore". If there is no strong viable competitor for you to consider, what are you going to do?

[scottfromiowa]

A new 430W (only sold with install) is priced at $8189 Sarasota Avionics and a new GTN650 is $9789.  A $1600 price delta for new vs. new...or about the trade in value of the existing GNC300XL in our bird.

[scottfromiowa]

The larger screen just doesn't make sense for $ difference and the physical size in the panel with the 696 and the existing KX155 Com/VOR that will be retained.  If price were no object I would have a J.  I/we can't justify on the desire to have a functional IFR panel that will get us above/down through a layer...that said I love to see the panel upgrades that some put into vintage Mooney's.

[Marauder]

The larger screen just doesn't make sense for $ difference and the physical size in the panel with the 696 and the existing KX155 Com/VOR that will be retained.  If price were no object I would have a J.  I/we can't justify on the desire to have a functional IFR panel that will get us above/down through a layer...that said I love to see the panel upgrades that some put into vintage Mooney's.

 

Scott -- I will post some pictures when I get a chance. When I looked at the 650/750, I had a hard time justifying the additional money for the 750. It was a sizeable price difference and since I did not have an HSI, I opted to go with the Aspen PFD. The side benefit was that it gave my autopilot a whole new life with the GPSS capabilities. While the install was going on, I learned about the MFD capabilities and since I was having an Aspen already installed, Aspen stepped up and gave me a decent price for their MFD 1000 version (it is called the Aspen 2000 system -- PFD with a MFD 1000).

 

And even though I thought I had done a ton of research prior to beginning the upgrade, I was surprised to find things I missed (like the EI fuel totalizer capable of interfacing with the Garmin). As well, there were "hidden" features that I encountered (like having the Aspen MFD fully control the autopilot during reversion through a switch). Aspen provided the wiring schematics for the option -- it's not listed on their site anywhere.

 

I'm really happy with the end result. I never knew what I was missing out on.

[Bob_Belville]

I do not think one can overestimate the value of having the most dependable equipment one can afford. What's your neck worth?

 

In the months before I decided to start over with my panel, I had to have the KNS80 rebuilt, a Stormscope 900 rebuilt, and a HSI behave erratically in instrument conditions. My STEC 50 worked great in stand alone modes -- STB/HDG/ALT-HLD -- but would steer away from the course in NAV or LOC, obviously integration issues that were probably going to mean a lot of trouble shooting time @ avionics shop rates. I was really navigating with the 696. Bottom line, I was not going to trust what I had in an IMC approach.

[scottfromiowa]

I do not think one can overestimate the value of having the most dependable equipment one can afford. What's your neck worth?

 

In the months before I decided to start over with my panel, I had to have the KNS80 rebuilt, a Stormscope 900 rebuilt, and a HSI behave erratically in instrument conditions. My STEC 50 worked great in stand alone modes -- STB/HDG/ALT-HLD -- but would steer away from the course in NAV or LOC, obviously integration issues that were probably going to mean a lot of trouble shooting time @ avionics shop rates. I was really navigating with the 696. Bottom line, I was not going to trust what I had in an IMC approach.

I hear ya Bob.  I am not talking about cutting corners or putting in sub-standard equipment in the aircraft.  That said a STEC auto-pilot and an Aspen are NOT going to happen at this time.  Not to long ago a Garmin 430 was "IT" for IFR.  Safety is about knowing your plane, it's equipment and your competence in knowing the equipment and its and your limitations.  As I stated we are not going to be flying "hard" IFR with the plane.  It is for pleasure.  That said I look forward to getting the plane equipped and working on my IFR ticket.  There have been many times when a low layer has prevented a departure that had I had an IFR ticket I/we could have climbed on top...THAT is what I am looking for.  Again, No beef with Aspen's and putting money into your panels, but we have limitations...that aren't going to involve risking our necks.  Totally understand where you are coming from and glad you got your issues resolved.