Crossroads

[mjc]

The short version:
I'm pretty sure I'm going to need another airplane. This is probably a surprise to the folks on this board who know me, since I really like my airplane.

The longer version:
I bought my Mooney M20C years ago, when my buying criteria were, in order, safety, efficiency, and low costs. The little Mooney delivered on its promises and has been a great plane over the years. However, in those years I added a wife and two children to the mix. A recent family trip saw the little Mooney stuffed to the bursting point with people and clothes and toys. The airplane has to suit the mission, and as much as it pained me to discover, my mission has changed. Comfort must displace efficiency, and volume now trumps low costs. (Safety will always be first.)

So about the next airplane… it must have four or more seats. It has to be as fast as what we have. It has to carry as much weight as I can carry now (700 lbs. payload for 600 miles). It has to carry more volume and be comfortable to fly in. Of course, it has to be well-built.

We looked at larger Mooneys (M20R and M20S), but they’re too expensive. (The 201 is just not bigger enough.) We looked at Bonanzas, but my wife doesn’t like the way they feel in the air. The larger Pipers are out; I owned a Cherokee before the Mooney and we’re not getting another one. I don’t trust the Cessna RGs and the other Cessnas are too slow. Navions and Comanches are a bit older than I’d like. Commanders are un-maintainable. Which as far as I can see leaves the Socata Trinidad. Well, maybe the Cirrus, but I’ve flown a few and… no.

So we crawled around inside a local Trinidad and flew in a Trinidad. It was the first airplane (other than, of course, a Mooney) on which my wife and I agreed. Maybe we’re only willing to consider airplanes with unusual vertical tails. It also had a very stable, Mooney-like feel in the air (except, of course, for the somewhat higher fuel burn). That said, the baggage area alone has four times the volume of mine and the rear seat fits three across. So that problem would be solved.

 

There may be another M20C on the market in the near future. It feels strange entertaining that notion and even more strange thinking about flying something that isn't a Mooney.

[gregwatts]

Sounds like you need a Saratoga!

[Cody Stallings]

Keep the Mooney, an use FedEx overnight for the kids an cargo....

If it were only that easy.

Man just the thought of getting rid of a mooney is heartbreaking.

Are twins out of the question?

Have a customer, with a Baron 56TC that's really sharp, his wife says it has to go. Cause he got a Duke with PT-6 behind the props

[rbridges]

you said the other cessnas are too slow, but I was going to mention 182's.  They have great useful load and will carry a family of 4.  Just more fuel burn and a little less speed.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Hard to beat a T210 for transportation.  Mine would legally haul 1000 pounds in the cabin after putting all 90 gallons into the tanks.   It has a door on each side, is easy to get in and out, and lots of room once you're settled in.  In the summer it is nice to ride in the shade, too.  

[201er]

Comfort must displace efficiency, and volume now trumps low costs. (Safety will always be first.)

 

Sounds like a 747 would suit your mission well. Short runways weren't a criteria you mentioned

[Marauder]

I went through this phase (kids) and it passed and it shall for you too. I found that the majority of our trips when the kids were younger were typically shorter since they just didn't want to sit for that long. As they got older and bigger, I actually rented a few bigger planes for those trips where I needed the extra payload. Later, i became friends with an 182 owner and we would trade planes for different missions. After the kids reach a certain age, they were starting to do their own thing and often would ask to stay at home while the Mrs. and I travelled. Now that one is through college and the other is soon to be, the Mooney is mainly for my wife and I. I don't know the kind of traveling you do, but if you expect to fly routinely with the need for extra payload, it makes sense to get a bigger plane. If your trips are only several times a year, it might make more sense to rent or find an alternative when the need arises.

[jetdriven]

I'd take another look at an A36.  Aside from a 210 (which flies like a school bus and is hard to see out of) there is nothing else in that class that can deliver 160 knots without a lot more fuel flow or two engines. A properly flown LOP A36 can go 160 knots on 12-13 GPH.  Not Mooney efficiency, but better than the rest. You can also buy yourself a dinette set on a trip and take it home.

 

I have flown the Trinidad and the Tampico. They are alright airplanes, but are slow for the class and AFAIK, Socata stopped supporting the airplane, which means $3,500 and a 3 month lead time for landing gear pivot bolts, etc. 

[gjkirsch]

If you are looking at a Trindad, maybe you want to stay with a Mooney and consider this plane.  I do not know anything about it, but unless it is a misprint, they are almost giving it away.  http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=1234409

 

 

Gordon

[Alan Fox]

I would hold off on the Mooney right now.....I dont the see the company surviving much longer , And I dont think anyone is in line to buy it..... I think if the company goes tits up , There will be some super duper deals on Mooneys less than 20 years old..... As the Pre Js are so cheap anyway , I dont think they will be affected as much.....Just my opinion...

[N33GG]

I almost bought a Trinidad years ago. The problem for me is that I have a long torso, and I just did not fit without my head hitting the roof. Other than that it was pretty cool. I did have concerns about service and support given a foreign manufacturer.

I used to have a Navion. Fun airplane, but just too old and not practical as a daily flyer. Hung in there for too long before moving on.

I flew a Saratoga all over the lower 48 for about 5 years when my 3 kids were young, and it was awesome. Moved up to a BE58TC when they got older, and it was awesome too. Glad I am not filling those tanks today though!

From what you have said, I would take a closer look at the longer fuselage series Bonanzas, such as the 36. Great airplanes!

Good luck. I have been through the pain of change with a growing family.

[aviatoreb]

The short version:

I'm pretty sure I'm going to need another airplane. This is probably a surprise to the folks on this board who know me, since I really like my airplane.

The longer version:

I bought my Mooney M20C years ago, when my buying criteria were, in order, safety, efficiency, and low costs. The little Mooney delivered on its promises and has been a great plane over the years. However, in those years I added a wife and two children to the mix. A recent family trip saw the little Mooney stuffed to the bursting point with people and clothes and toys. The airplane has to suit the mission, and as much as it pained me to discover, my mission has changed. Comfort must displace efficiency, and volume now trumps low costs. (Safety will always be first.)

So about the next airplane… it must have four or more seats. It has to be as fast as what we have. It has to carry as much weight as I can carry now (700 lbs. payload for 600 miles). It has to carry more volume and be comfortable to fly in. Of course, it has to be well-built.

We looked at larger Mooneys (M20R and M20S), but they’re too expensive. (The 201 is just not bigger enough.) We looked at Bonanzas, but my wife doesn’t like the way they feel in the air. The larger Pipers are out; I owned a Cherokee before the Mooney and we’re not getting another one. I don’t trust the Cessna RGs and the other Cessnas are too slow. Navions and Comanches are a bit older than I’d like. Commanders are un-maintainable. Which as far as I can see leaves the Socata Trinidad. Well, maybe the Cirrus, but I’ve flown a few and… no.

So we crawled around inside a local Trinidad and flew in a Trinidad. It was the first airplane (other than, of course, a Mooney) on which my wife and I agreed. Maybe we’re only willing to consider airplanes with unusual vertical tails. It also had a very stable, Mooney-like feel in the air (except, of course, for the somewhat higher fuel burn). That said, the baggage area alone has four times the volume of mine and the rear seat fits three across. So that problem would be solved.

 

There may be another M20C on the market in the near future. It feels strange entertaining that notion and even more strange thinking about flying something that isn't a Mooney.

 

Last year, the guy in the hangar next to me gave up his M20C and got a commanche twin - twinkie they call those twins.  A 1972 I think, with deice boots and so forth.  6 seats and weight and balance capable to fill all 6.  Twin IO320s so it is not toooo bad on the burn for a twin - he can easily dial back to 12 but he can also burn 16-18.  Speeds are 170-175+ on the high end.  It has a laminar wing I think unlike the cherokee/saratoga/seneca hershey bar wing line that replaced it - it is really pretty slick and efficient to bring a smile to a Mooney drivers face.  Its an impressive plane - a later model in the line in excellent shape would really be nice and fit your mission well.  They are really well priced as are all twins these days, but with the io320s they aren't too fierce at the pumps.  If I wanted more seats I would seriously consider it.

 

....but I think I will follow the same path as Maurader.  I have 3 kids and a wife - 5 of us.  95% of my flying calls for 2 or 3 max and my plane is well capable of that.  (whether it be solo getting myself someplace, flying with friends, or one of my boys in the special 1 on 1 time which consists of a lot of my flying, or training, and so forth) and maybe  5% of my flying might call for moving the whole family, but one of my boys, my middle boy who is 14, gets severe motion sickness and almost refuses to get in the plane, and my wife is luke warm on flying and just as happy to drive him...  So sometimes I stay an extra day at work while she drives ahead with the boys  in the minivan, and I catch up, and sometimes we all go in the minivan.  For the handful of times a year I have to "fly" in the 6 seat minivan, I would hate to give up the perfect machine for the 95% of the time mission I keep the rocket for.  And soon enough (11, 14, and 16) they are going to start going to college and I will have a great excuse to fly all around - visiting them.

[mjc]

Thanks, everyone, for the responses. To answer some of the suggestions...

While I'm no longer obsessed with efficiency, I don't think I could handle a twin's fuel burn. Or overhaul two engines, even on a Twinkie.

I have some experience with Pipers. The build quality is just not there, especially compared to a Mooney, Beech, or Socata.

As for the Bonanza, when we looked at all the contenders, the only two that made sense in the end were the Trinidad and the A36 Bonanza. I liked the Bonanza a lot, but my wife and daughter didn't. It is pretty narrow, and the back moved around a lot in turbulence, so they just weren't very comfortable in it. Prices for Beech parts are also quite a bit higher than Mooney or Socata parts. For my flights in them, the Bonanza is the fastest, 165 knots on 15 gph LOP. The Trinidad turned in 160 knots on 14 gph, so efficiency is similar. Neither can touch a Mooney... both did about 120 knots on my M20C fuel burn.

Socata does still make parts for the Trinidad. They even make parts for he Ralleye series. I'm frankly more concerned about getting new Mooney parts.

I did see that Ovation. One, it is listed as sale pending. Two, hail damage. Three, 860 lbs. useful. Four, it still costs more than a 1970s A36 or 1980s Trinidad. So while I think an Ovation would be ideal, I don't think it's going to happen.

[N33GG]

I do not understand your issues with Piper aircraft. I have owned some Pipers, flown many, many hours in many, many models, and I have found most of them to be fine aircraft. I am not that enthused with the Apaches and Aztecs, although many people seem to like them just fine. I think the Cherokee series are incredible, including old and newer versions. FWIW

[co2bruce]

I looked at the Trinidads before buying my Eagle. The turbo will do 160, the standard will not. You are also correct, some parts are readily available, many are not ( like Mooney). Socata is a very well made airplane and they have a great forum site (socata.org) I think. Check over there.

[wwrick]

I would hold off on the Mooney right now.....I dont the see the company surviving much longer , And I dont think anyone is in line to buy it..... I think if the company goes tits up , There will be some super duper deals on Mooneys less than 20 years old..... As the Pre Js are so cheap anyway , I dont think they will be affected as much.....Just my opinion...

 

I thought the company was doing OK on the revenue from service and support to the delivered fleet.  Has there been any information about the company shutting down?  I am new to MooneySpace, joined because I love Mooneys and thinking about buying one.

 

thanks

[Marauder]

I would hold off on the Mooney right now.....I dont the see the company surviving much longer , And I dont think anyone is in line to buy it..... I think if the company goes tits up , There will be some super duper deals on Mooneys less than 20 years old..... As the Pre Js are so cheap anyway , I dont think they will be affected as much.....Just my opinion... I thought the company was doing OK on the revenue from service and support to the delivered fleet. Has there been any information about the company shutting down? I am new to MooneySpace, joined because I love Mooneys and thinking about buying one. thanks

Mooney has had their ups and downs like Piper and Cessna. Depending on the part you may need, you may find difficulty getting the part for a number of general aviation airplanes. Common parts, like engine components are easier since they go across the fleet. Airframe specific parts are probably the most difficult to find and accessory items like interior components, switches, etc. may or may not have (easily) available solutions.

[Guillaume]

I almost bought a Trinidad years ago. The problem for me is that I have a long torso, and I just did not fit without my head hitting the roof. Other than that it was pretty cool. I did have concerns about service and support given a foreign manufacturer..

I flew in a Trinidad last spring (about 12 hours) and just like you, I wouldn't fit without hitting the roof. I flew in an old version (14 volts) of the trinidad and I've been told that in the newer version, you can adjust the height of the seat (to be confirmed).

The aircraft is very easy to fly (especially in IFR). It is as stable as a Mooney. I did my IFR training in a Piper Arrow III and it seemed that the Trinidad was more stable than the Piper.

Landings are easy (even when the runway is short)

It flies pretty well in icing condition (doń´t ask me how I know...)

At FL 80 WOT/2300RPM/14 GPH the aircraft flew at 137 KIAS which is more or less 156 KTAS. My M20J is doing the same speed... but @ 10 GPH (or 8 GPH LOP)

The Socata factory is still producing parts for the TB series (but these parts are known to be pricey). Last year Socata advertised a factory glass cockpit G500 upgrade for the Trinidad.

I think you should expect higher operating cost (especially compared to your M20C).

This link may interest you : http://www.peter2000.co.uk/aviation/tb20-experience/index.html

[aerobat95]

I like the Piper Lance....most guys around here who fly them say they can do 150 on about 16GPH.  They also say if it fits it will fly it. 

[David Mazer]

I have a friend with a Trinidad.  He really likes it but it better not break anymore.  He had to wait 100 days (literally) for the parts order to be placed, not filled, and the plane was down for about 5 months.  Worse than Mooney?  Worse than Mooney will be?

[N601RX]

I like the idea of just shipping the luggage. Get a couple of lockable large Pelican Cases and just ship them to where you are going. It will not take many gallon of 100LL to pay for the shipping. You can ship them to any ups store, postoffice, hotel or business. I've done this a lot with test equipment and large electronics while flying commercial and never had any problems. My stuff is there when I get there.

Mike

[mooney389]

Check the AD's on the Trinadad, the control surfaces may have to be pulled every annual and have bushings replaced.

[johnggreen]

 A Skylane will give you everything you seek with maybe, MAYBE, a fifteen minute penalty on a 500 nautical flight with equal cabin loads and probably less.

 

You are going to have to worry about parts availability and cost with almost anything other than the Cessna.  If you really want to make the buying mistake of your life, the Trinidad will sate your desires.

 

Jgreen

[mjc]

 A Skylane will give you everything you seek with maybe, MAYBE, a fifteen minute penalty on a 500 nautical flight with equal cabin loads and probably less.

 

You are going to have to worry about parts availability and cost with almost anything other than the Cessna.  If you really want to make the buying mistake of your life, the Trinidad will sate your desires.

 

Jgreen

Wow. That is a bold, somewhat troll-like claim. Thing is, I'm not able to tell if the buying mistake part applies only to the Trinidad or to every airplane other than a Cessna. Beech parts have always been expensive, but a Beech owner will say they rarely need any. Now they're being reorganized. Mooney is not exactly a vibrant enterprise. So yes, Cessna has them beat there, but then, so does Socata.

I should mention to some of the other posters that we had to supplement our baggage capacity this summer by shipping some of our stuff each way. It worked, but was an annoying time out from the vacation. Another issue is that it restricts us to one day trips where we know exactly where we're going.

Finally, my beef with Piper. I owned a Cherokee before the Mooney. I bought more Piper parts in two years than Mooney parts in ten. It was almost like everything was designed to wear out.

[johnggreen]

MJC,

 

I don't see that as a bold statement at all and have no idea what a "troll-like" claim is.   The import of my statement should be obvious.  The Socata is a fringe market airplane.  Most potential aircraft buyers would not consider purchasing one at any price.  As other posters have noted, parts supply is an issue and unlike Piper, Beech, Cessna, and Mooney there is no inventory in salvage yards. I have had acquaintances who purchased fringe market aircraft before, a Siai Marchetti, a Socata, and a Meyers 200 coming immediately to mind.  Their experiences were extraordinarily bad.

 

I currently own a Piper, a Mooney, and recently purchased a 1975 Skylane, the Skylane being the 33rd aircraft I have owned in my aviation career.  I bought it for one of my sons and am beginning the process of a complete refurbishment.  Virtually no part on the airplane is more than a phone call and two day shipment away including interior and exterior plastics, control surfaces, glass, etc.  In fact, I can't think of a single part on the airplane that either I or my mechanic don't know the source from memory; he has most of them on speed dial.

 

The gentleman who started this thread asked a realistic question.  I will assume that he is serious and has the financial ability to move up from the M20C.  My answers were accurate and pertinent.  If that makes me a troll, I suppose that is a good thing.

 

Jgreen